BWS and BWP Help!!!

[LeftHook]

I posted part of this in another thread, but I figured I'd make my own thread to get as many opinions as possible.

I've had my BWS and BWP for just about 2 weeks now (got them at the same time...gift from a family member) and so far they are kicking my butt. I have both drilled out to #1 and they both have insane reactions in the backends. The houses I play at seem to be inconsistent in their oil patterns....sometimes dry, sometimes soaking wet, so I make the best of it.

I should say that I have only been bowling for 2 months and my average is 180....started at a meek 70. I've come along way in that time, but my inexperience in adjusting to lane conditions is holding me at that average. I occasionally get over 200, but few and far between. My problem with the widows are that they are breaking early. I get a ton of Brooklyn strikes. My speed is around 15mph with a fair amount of revs. I got them as a pair after reading many posts in this forum where people stated that they started with the BWS and switched to BWP when the lanes started to breakdown. Sounded good in theory! But when I make the switch, the BWP seems to stop, turn left, give me the finger, and then blaze into the 1 and 2 pins. I asked it nicely to behave, but she likes to act wild. I've read a lot of posts where people say they can't get there BWP to turn the corner. That is not the case with me.

The other night at league I started throwing straight down the 10, and by the end of the 3rd game I was almost lofting both widows over the left gutter just so they would hit the pocket (I was trying both the BWS and BWP to see how each would react). As hard as it was, I will say it felt pretty cool to watch the ball come screaming in, even if it left a ton of splits and singles.

Is my problem speed? Not enough loft? I lay the ball down right past my slide foot. I try to make it glide onto the floor without a sound. Someone mentioned to me that I put too much hand into it, but that's the way I throw. My hand comes off the right side of the ball every time.

I'd like to hear from the Widow experts about their starting lines and how far they have to adjust throughout a night of league play.

Other than that...I love these Black Widows. My Columbia Wrath has a nice smooth arc, but it's a instant high to watch these little ladies bounce off the 1 board and knock the pins into oblivion.

[TenPinSniper]

Do you know you PAP and how the Pin is placed related to that? Are you high, medium or low track?

[LeftHook]

The pin is placed above and in the middle of my fingers. Definitely high track. I've never had the PAP measured out. I trusted the pro-shop guy to lay it out. The HMB is roughly two inches out from the right side and below the thumb hole, so I'd guess the PAP to be 4"-5" out to the right center line of the grip. The BWS does not have an xhole but the BWP does 3-4" right of the grip above the centerline.

Does any of that make sense? I'm a noobie trying to keep my head above water :D

[TenPinSniper]

Without seeing you bowling and just going off generalizations. Not knowing Axis Tilit, Axis Rotation, PAP, Revs and Speed. Plus lane conditions. It hard to say.

Generally a pin above the fingers will provide strong backend reaction.
Positive side weight will make a ball read the lanes quicker also. The common thought is positive side is better than negative side. But even that is becoming a bad generalization, as the bowling ball cover gets stronger.

Hope this helps.

[BubbaRay]

First off Great bowling and imporovement in your game. Keep up the good work.

Secondly I am no expert by any means jsut your avg. pro and coach so here goes my opinion on what's going on.

Although the BWS is more of a med to heavy oil ball and the BWP (The
hottest selling ball) is mostly a med oil ball sounds more to me like it a lane condition problem more than the drill pattern of both balls. Sounds like the oil is drying up as the night goes on ( short oil) . The drill patterns you described makes the ball go longer but with an aggressive backend . Skid/flip reaction.

Your mass bias is in the 45 degree position. The pin placement being for length.

I usually play around 20 to 10 with my BWS and 20-5 with my NM. There is more oil inside at the house where I shoot. I may have to adjust no more than 5 boards on the approach throughout the night.


You don't seem to be doing anything wrong . Just sounds like a drying out condition. You might want to throw some polish on the BW's to get them to skid through the heads more.

[bluerrpilot]

Welcome to the boards. There is alot of good advise you can find here. And many different opinions and points of view. I will offer mine.

Regardless of axis tilt, axis rotation, PAP, revs, speed, lane conditions, yada yada and so-on it all comes down to the magic of friction. The more friction, the more hook. One way to combat this is what you already mentioned. Adjusting. You will get better at it and more accustomed to it. In the few months that you have been bowling you have already improved greatly. Just practice a little and you will be right on. You need to keep the ball in the oil longer or move the breakpoint farther away from the gutter.

Or you can do what Bubba said and add polish :)

[LeftHook]

Thanks for all the great advice and thanks for the complements! A few months ago when some guys at work said they were starting a bowling team and needed a fourth, I laughed. Having never bowled a day in my life (I'm 31) I didn't think I could bring much to a team. After the first night I was bitten by the bowling bug and never looked back. I practiced almost everyday with my wife and TIVO'd everything bowling so I could study and analyze the pros, which is the only reason my average is what it is now. So to anyone else on here that is new, watch the pros, read books, and above all practice.

I'm about to head out to our Tuesday night league (I'm on two leagues now) and do my best to follow the oil. I usually throw my Wrath 16-10 and get pretty high scores. I'll try the same with the BW's and put a little more pepper behind them (all backswing not muscle). I'll let you guys know how it went.

Thanks for your help.

[BubbaRay]

Good luck and post them scores for us to see.

[TenPinSniper]

Goodluck.

By the way thats one heck of an improvement.

How is your Wrath drilled? It could be you like something tamer than the BW as the lanes breakdown. So the Wrath would be the go to ball.

Keeping the break point more inside, follow the oil in... is good advice also.(Blue nailed that.)

[xGatez]

Also, you may want to try and take some revs off the ball if you can at all, i know that has helped me alot, where now i can take the revs off or put more on whenever i need it.

[LeftHook]

Okay, so not such a good night. The house laid down fresh oil when I got there, which made for a rough night all around. I saw some people throw perfectly only to have their ball punch straight into the six pin. I found a few good lines early on, but it seemed that by the time the ball got down to the pins it lost steam- pushing the pins over instead of knocking them over. It wasn't just me. A guy on my team who usually throws 220+ only hit 170's. I also had a horrible night of spares, missing by a half board most of the time.

MY scores were: 155, 154, 164

What do you guys suggest when it seems the house oils all the way to the pins and you can't seem to find a break point?

[HammerheadKenny]

haha theres reall nothing you can do. I mean, there are balls that are a little better on oil than the BW, but if that wont break the others wont do much better. Thats when you just stand all the way to thr right and help guide it to the pocket I guess, I hate that. But I have a question, how much difference do you notice in your balls both being drilled skid/flip? I have the same combo coming, but was recomended to go with the strong drilling on BWS and skid/flip on BWP. I talked about this with you guys not that long ago, but am wondering what the strong drilling should do down the lane. Is it going to start hooking sooner or just have more of an arc to it?

[Rowdy]

The 10? What in the Wide World of Sports are you doing way inside like that? You've got to get farther out,around the 3 to 5 board. Or you can go to the other extreme and stand over on the LEFT side,right foot between the last two dots and throw across so the ball breaks at about the 5 pin. You'll have to play with the breakpoint because of the differences in oil. On some patterns you;ll get a ton of break on others you'll have to come up next to the ditch and pray for the best.

[SplitMaster]

On my bwp I have the all purpose layout on it...I can take down the 15 board..out to about the 5 and it will come back and crash the pocket..if I pick up my speed and throw it straight down the 10 board it will hold and snap into the pocket about 3 feet away..or I can slow it down and go 20 to about 8-10 and it will come back with a smooth arch...but I like playing the first mentioned from the 15 out to about 5-8 or so...thats where I feel more comfortable.

[LeftHook]

I have to say that I like both drilled out skid/flip. Last weekend when I practiced with both BW's I was getting 190's. I started outside and eventually moved inside. I found that once the BWS started hitting high I could throw the BWP on the same line- it went longer then snapped into the pocket. The rumors of speed sensitive are very true! If you throw them slow then you're in trouble. I started throwing between 14 and 15 mph last night without much success. When I moved up to 17 mph with a nice follow thru and more hand, I started to see a difference. On all that oil and that speed I had to take a deeper inside line- left most dot across the middle...it would go out the 10 and snap back in. Going to the outside went long the first few throws, then went high by the third frame. 8 bowlers break down the outside very quickly.

The balls were not the issue last night....mostly mental. If I think too much about one aspect of my delivery everything else suffers. I went back to basics...get low, get fast, and kick the leg out for leverage. The BW's are not for the meek, but trust the ball and you'll be okay. Luckily for me, last night was all about setting handicaps, so the next time I find myself lost on the boards I know I have a higher hanidcap to back me up...atleast until I figure these things out.

[LeftHook]

I just went and threw 3 practice games during lunch. My Wrath likes to be thrown in a smooth arc. I typically stand two boards left of center, throw across the 12 board, run out to the 5 board and hook back in....smooth arc.

Today I only took the Widow's. I lined up way left, then said, "what the hell...for old times sake..." and lined up how I would normally throw the Wrath. The BWS went across 12, ran out to 5 turned left and punched the pins right in the face. The line was almost identical to my Wrath except with more hitting power. After 1.5 games the BWS was starting to go high so I switched to the BWP throwing the same line and it was magic. All three games were in the 190's...I even made a 1-3-8-10 split and some old man said, "Jesus Christ son are you a pro."

So, what does skid/flip mean? Does it simply mean that the ball skids straight through the oil, then when it feels dry it takes off like a bat out of hell....uh hum...Widow out of hell? I had it in my head that it was some kind of Tommy Jones/Rob Smith hooking extravaganza, but it would seem it likes a smooth arc with a punchy backend release.

Wish I would have figured that out before league last night!!!!

[Rowdy]

You're question about oil all the way down: Start out around the 3 or 4 pin. Throw it over the 1st arrow and see what happens. You may have to move your spot outside a bit,and change the speed a little.

[Rowdy]

Skid/flip is pretty much what it sounds like. The ball skids straight until it slows down enough to flip. Then it hangs a hard left into the pocket. That's all there is to it.