Can you help a old dude out? It's been a while

[WGHill]

Hey All...

My name is Gary, was a decent local/regional bowler 25 years ago, even made a bit of a living at this game, ok so it was a meager living, "back in the day"...

Picked up the game again about 6 mos ago when a good friend asked me to bowl in a league... fast-forward to today...

The only balls that survived the years was a Black Rhino and a beautiful 1970's Carmel Columbia White Dot... maybe some of you long-timers might remember these gems... anyway, got new grips and had the thumbs plugged/punched for no other reason than not to have to throw house balls... anyway... now I am carrying 209, a little higher than I expected at this point, and given my timing can sometimes still be all over the place, a little over my head for my tastes...

I've finalyy decided a couple of things... work on the timing(always been among the weaker points of my game) and get some new gear, the 25 and 30 year old gear obviously doesn't work too bad, but I keep hearing how much the new gear has done so much for so many people...

In my day, basically, we looked at hardness and then messed around with finger and side weights... I liked a 3/8 + side with 1/2 oz or so of finger weight... basically made the ball run longer and snap harder... as I am and have always been something between a stroker and a cranker... I now hear the term tweener... that worked well for my average speed... and made that white dot manageable in desert like conditions to flooded lanes... still is fun today...

Now I hear PIN and PAP and RG and Flare... guys, I gotta say am I lost!

I've done some basic research and I seem to be settling in on the Doom or the Toxic... I'd say I am avg speed, 14+, average or more revs, throw what was called a 3/4 roll in my day, tracks fairly consistant,,, like a bit of a snap on the back ends to help with agression and ten pins... although I'm the first to say when I got what I deserved... I like a little tug room but thrive with a ball that gives me boards to the right... Currently bowling in a handicap league but that will change next season, conditions are genarally nice, first league of the night... starts med to oily... a good bit of carrydown with all the plastic...

If you've read all this, you might have some info I'd like... DOOM or TOXIC, and what are best thoughts on drilling... again looking for something that runs long and snaps... not really looking for a flip, but something that definately leaves no doubt!

Thank you...

Gary

[mongoliantreesloth]

Can't answer the questions however I'd like to be the first to welcome you here :)

[bluerrpilot]

Both balls are pretty snappy in the back. The Doom has a better midlane than the Toxic so it will be a bit more forgiving and recover better. The Doom is also less sensitive to carry down.

Take your Rhino down to the lanes and throw it down the middle where there is oil. Then walk it into the proshop and they can tell you where your pap is. Then tell them you would like the new ball layed out 4" pin to pap. It will give you a good backend reaction but not be too flippy. As long as the CG(center of gravity) is not below the grip center, you will have some finger weight.


There are a few other guys around here that drill as well and we can offer a decent amount of drilling options and knowledge.

[WGHill]

Mongo... thanks for the welcome

Blue... thanks... there may be a post that tells me this, haven't really looked hard... but if not, in basic terms, what is PIN and how does it relate to PAP? or visa versa, whichever is appropriate... think I'll go educate myself a bit...

[mongoliantreesloth]

The doc contained in the zip file may answer a few of your queries. I'v had this a while now - can't remember from where I got it in the first instance.

[Thepainscoming]

Hello and welcome to the board. PIN is the colored round thing on the ball. PAP is your positive axis point. This is where if the ball didnt flare at all, thats the exact point it would rotate around until it hits friction. I would get the toxic because u could use it on more conditions. I would take the grit of the surface down a bit and then put polish on it to make it not as flippy or take the layout blue said. I think thats an excellent layout 4X4

[BubbaRay]

WGhill welcome to the Hammer message board. I remember very well back in the days about the side and finger weight drilling because all my equipmwent back then was 3/4oz Pos. side and finger weight. The game and equipment has evolved so much it's amazing. Those days of side and finger are gone. Evrything now is based on your axis point co-ordinates. There are generally four directions you can place the pin: high, low, towards the PAP and towards the track, or combinations thereof.

High pin position

A "high" pin position means that the pin is located up towards the top of the ball. The higher the pin is placed, the longer the ball will go down the lane before it changes direction. One must be careful, for if the pin is placed too high, the ball will go too long and will change direction too late, if at all.

Low pin position

A pin located towards the midline (horizontal line midway between thumb and fingerholes - use to locate PAP), or even lower, will make the ball change direction earlier. It is also important to note that if the pin is placed too low, the ball might flare or track over the middle finger. There is something called "the safe zone" which is located above an imaginary line from the PAP to the middle finger. If the pin is placed below this line, there is the danger of the flare hitting the middle finger. If the pin is above this line, the ball is "safe" from this result. Generally, this is only a problem for higher-track players and for high flare potential bowling balls.

Pin towards the PAP

The closer the pin is placed to the bowler's positive axis point, the earlier the ball will change direction. Please note this does NOT necessarily mean the ball will hook more - only earlier. There are ways to drill balls involving this method where balls will change direction earlier than most other equipment, but cover less total boards than most other equipment.

Also, a pin on the PAP will generally make the ball have zero flare potential. This is because the core is in a very stable position. Flare is caused by the core "realigning" itself in order to find a stable position to roll in. A ball with the pin on the axis means that the core is laying exactly on its side and rolling much like a rolling pin that a chef would use to flatten out dough. Again, this is a very stable position so the core has no work to do to find stability.

Pin towards the track

The closer the pin is placed to the bowler's track, the later the ball will change direction. This is essentially the opposite of the previous description of the pin near the PAP regarding when the ball will hook.

However, this is very much like the pin towards the PAP regarding flare potential. Pin on the track is also a very stable position. The core is standing straight up and down relative to the axis on which it is rotating. Because of this stability, the ball again will not flare much because it has no reason to find a more stable position...it is already in a very stable position.

Pin between PAP and track

Although not an actual, physical "location," the vast majority of bowling balls are drilled where the pin is near the middle of these two. If you put the pin at about 3 3/8" from the PAP, this results in a ball which has the core in a very unstable position. The core is not laying on its side and it is not standing up either. As a result, it will try to realign itself during its trip down the lane to find some stability. This is what causes track flare, and the 3 3/8" pin position cause a LARGE amount of track flare because the pin will be about halfway between the track and the PAP. The further from this 3 3/8" point you get, the less the ball will flare. Going towards the axis will make it flare less and hook sooner...going towards the track will make it flare less and hook later.

Now you are starting to get the idea of how to "tweak" the pin position to accomplish the reaction you desire. With combinations of vertical and horizontal pin location, you can make the ball do just about anything on the front 2/3 of the lane, which dictates how much hook potential it will end up having when it gets to the last 1/3 of the lane.

Keep in mind that bowlers have different PAP's and different spans (distance between thumbhole and fingerholes). A bowler with a pin above his ring finger can get a totally different reaction than someone else, and the pin can also be in a totally different place on the ball depending on the length of the bowler's span. When referring to pin placement, please try to refer to it as a distance from the PAP and also how far above or below the midline.


the mass bias as controlling the reaction on the backend of the lane. More specifically, it controls the SHAPE of the hook. This is different than the amount of hook, which is nothing more than total boards covered. Total boards of hook is more dictated by the flare potential the ball has combined with how much energy the ball has retained and how much energy the ball has already used. Energy retention is affected by factors such as surface preparation, amount of oil, ball speed, revolutions, rev rate, axis of rotation and axis tilt.

The mass bias of a bowling ball basically tells you in which direction the mass of the ball is biased towards (whoa, I'm sure THAT helped). This is different than the center of gravity of the ball. On balls that do not have symmetrical cores (Ebonite has a lot of these lately), or balls that are symmetrical in shape but not in density, where one side of the core is denser than the other (Storm likes to do this), it tells you where the heavier, denser, more massive (pick your favorite adjective) part of the core is.

What does this mean? I have no idea. However, I can tell you what happens when you put the mass bias marking in different places and how it will affect your ball reaction. There are four basic locations you can put the mass bias on a bowling ball:

On your track
On your Vertical Axis Line (VAL)
Halfway between the track and the VAL
Past your VAL
On your track

This mass bias location, also referred to as a "1:30" drilling because the pin will end up at approximately a 1:30 clock position to the center of gravity (the CG being the center of the clock) will make the ball have an ARC reaction on the backend of the lane. The reaction will not be very snappy and will generally be smooth.

This also tends to be a good drill pattern for large, smooth, sweeping hook balls but only because the pin position usually ends up in a high flare potential position, not because of the location of the mass bias. If you put the pin on your axis and the MB on your track, you will not get a very large hooking bowling ball because of the very low flare potential that comes with that pin position.

On your VAL

Ok, first...what the heck is the Vertical Axis Line? It is very simple. The Vertical Axis Line is a vertical line that goes through your Positive Axis Point. For instance, my PAP is 5 3/4" right and 7/16" up. The line you use to go "up" would be the vertical axis line...just extend the line about 6 or 7 inches in the down direction and you can use it for mass bias location.

When you put the MB on the VAL, the ball reaction shape will be forward roll. When you want the ball to straighten out on the backend, this is the drill pattern that people go for. It is also called a "10:30" drill pattern because the pin will end up being located at a 10:30 position from the CG. I tend to use this drill pattern when I play outside the second arrow. I figure from there, the ball has enough entry angle as it is, so I don't want any more "sharpness" on the backend than necessary. This helps the ball straighten out and the entry angle is not too sharp.

Halfway between the track and the VAL

For all you brave souls (and those of you who want to see their balls do tricks), this is the "major flip" MB location. When control on the backend isn't so important and you want to maximize your entry angle and power transferred to the pins, this is the way to go. This also is a great MB location for playing the extreme inside angles like 5th arrow and deeper. From that far inside, you'll need as much entry angle as you can generate to get the ball to turn the corner, hit the pocket, and still have enough energy left to kick the corner pins out. When the lanes fry out, this is a great option if you would rather move deeper into the oil with an aggressive ball instead of staying outside with a mellower bowling ball.

As with all previous sections, you can also tweak the reaction by placing the mass bias between two of the locations described above to create a combination of the two.

Past your Vertical Axis Line

If you put the mass bias past your VAL, the ball will rev up a lot and very early. Some manufacturers' drill instructions say that this is for "maximum revolutions" or "earlier hook" but it's all about the core being able to rev up harder and faster. This layout is great for flooded heads and also for soft handed people who cannot get the ball to rev up enough to make a move to the pocket. This also helps low-track players (spinners) as well.

One note about the mass bias - On asymmetric core bowling balls, the mass bias is marked on the ball. Each company does this in different ways. They are not difficult to find when they are marked. However, balls with symmetric cores do not have a marked mass bias. These balls still have a mass bias, but it will not be as strong with respect to reaction effect.

To find the mass bias in non-marked balls, draw a line starting at the pin in the direction of the CG. Draw the line through the CG. Once you get to 6 3/4" from the pin, stop. This is the mass bias point. It is helpful to weigh the ball on a scale before you do this.

[idlehourlegend]

WG welcome to the Boards and welcome back to the game. Those old balls dont work to bad, around here a lot of guys including myself sometimes are going back to older stuff.

[WGHill]

Idle...

How are you drilling the old gear? Similar to new gear? Trying to get smart on current drilling techniques as this is all new to me... The Rhino I'd probably leave as is as it seems be a reliable scorer on many conditions, but I'd have some fun with my old white dot playing a nice down and in line... yeah it's plastic, and yeah it skids as much or more than it bites, but I am constantly amazed at how this vintage '76 15+ lb'r hits the hole, and the carmel swirl traveling the boards looks pretty cool too... never touched the surface of this thing and may condisder resurfacing as well... As I like to throw this ball due to it's very forgivng nature, both tug and swing, it could fun to set it up
with a little more attitude...

Although I may be chasing nostalgia for nostalgia's sake... just curious?

Thanks...

[idlehourlegend]

I have mine drilled just as they used to be I use my sledgehammer on the drier conditions. But there is a guy in our league that is throwing a galaxy thats like 30 years old from kmart and he is averaging 220 with it. Its really amazing to see like you said if he pulls it in it sits and if he throws it out it comes back.

[WGHill]

How do you like the NV? That is what I first started looking at before I seemed to zero in on the Doom or Toxic... hear pros and cons and from what I hear I might be looking at the NV as a 1 or two game ball unless I took some of the snap out, which historically has left me with more weak tens than I care to mention...

I fairly consistantly toss a 3/4 roller and tend to be closer to a stroker with a lot of finger at point of release... pitchin the ball in the mid 14's+...

Thanks...

[BubbaRay]

I have mine drilled just as they used to be I use my sledgehammer on the drier conditions. But there is a guy in our league that is throwing a galaxy thats like 30 years old from kmart and he is averaging 220 with it. Its really amazing to see like you said if he pulls it in it sits and if he throws it out it comes back.

And what did I say about lefties in another thread? The proof is in the pudding :D

[idlehourlegend]

And what did I say about lefties in another thread? The proof is in the pudding :D

Yea well we'll see today. Btw rob isnt coming but he will be there because hes working. He called my dad I didnt even have to call him like I siad I was going 2. His daughter wants me to bowl with them tommorrow so Im gonna.

[Rowdy]

Welcome back,WG. Always good to have someone else around who remembers what it was like "back in the day". We "more expeirienced" bowlers have to keep the young'uns honest. One question: Why limit yourself with those two balls? Take a look at the Black Widows and No Mercy's. Those balls are amazing! You can play all the lines and lane conditions with any one of them. Since you know how to throw and rev up a ball,you shouldn't have any problem at all scoring with one of these balls.

[bubbiesdad]

Hey All...

My name is Gary, was a decent local/regional bowler 25 years ago, even made a bit of a living at this game, ok so it was a meager living, "back in the day"...

Picked up the game again about 6 mos ago when a good friend asked me to bowl in a league... fast-forward to today...

The only balls that survived the years was a Black Rhino and a beautiful 1970's Carmel Columbia White Dot... maybe some of you long-timers might remember these gems... anyway, got new grips and had the thumbs plugged/punched for no other reason than not to have to throw house balls... anyway... now I am carrying 209, a little higher than I expected at this point, and given my timing can sometimes still be all over the place, a little over my head for my tastes...

I've finalyy decided a couple of things... work on the timing(always been among the weaker points of my game) and get some new gear, the 25 and 30 year old gear obviously doesn't work too bad, but I keep hearing how much the new gear has done so much for so many people...

In my day, basically, we looked at hardness and then messed around with finger and side weights... I liked a 3/8 + side with 1/2 oz or so of finger weight... basically made the ball run longer and snap harder... as I am and have always been something between a stroker and a cranker... I now hear the term tweener... that worked well for my average speed... and made that white dot manageable in desert like conditions to flooded lanes... still is fun today...

Now I hear PIN and PAP and RG and Flare... guys, I gotta say am I lost!

I've done some basic research and I seem to be settling in on the Doom or the Toxic... I'd say I am avg speed, 14+, average or more revs, throw what was called a 3/4 roll in my day, tracks fairly consistant,,, like a bit of a snap on the back ends to help with agression and ten pins... although I'm the first to say when I got what I deserved... I like a little tug room but thrive with a ball that gives me boards to the right... Currently bowling in a handicap league but that will change next season, conditions are genarally nice, first league of the night... starts med to oily... a good bit of carrydown with all the plastic...

If you've read all this, you might have some info I'd like... DOOM or TOXIC, and what are best thoughts on drilling... again looking for something that runs long and snaps... not really looking for a flip, but something that definately leaves no doubt!

Thank you...

Gary

If you're averaging 209 with a black Rhino, you'll tear up the lanes with today's technology.

[WGHill]

Welcome back,WG. Always good to have someone else around who remembers what it was like "back in the day". We "more expeirienced" bowlers have to keep the young'uns honest. One question: Why limit yourself with those two balls? Take a look at the Black Widows and No Mercy's. Those balls are amazing! You can play all the lines and lane conditions with any one of them. Since you know how to throw and rev up a ball,you shouldn't have any problem at all scoring with one of these balls.


Not knowing the new technology or drilling patterns, I am a little concerned about shelling out big bucks for the more aggressive balls in the event it is not the right choice... From what I've read about the Doom and Toxic, I think they would be be a good all-purpose ball for now...

The Widow is certainly an option, I have not looked at the NM's that much as they just appear to be sticky sponges(maybe not the right term for this time, but I think conveys my concern)... but with the more I am reading with all the drilling patterns, maybe there is a combo that works for me and gives me more than the Doom or Toxic could...

Haven't bought a new ball yet(pro-shop was closed today), so options are still open...

[Thepainscoming]

Not knowing the new technology or drilling patterns, I am a little concerned about shelling out big bucks for the more aggressive balls in the event it is not the right choice... From what I've read about the Doom and Toxic, I think they would be be a good all-purpose ball for now...

The Widow is certainly an option, I have not looked at the NM's that much as they just appear to be sticky sponges(maybe not the right term for this time, but I think conveys my concern)... but with the more I am reading with all the drilling patterns, maybe there is a combo that works for me and gives me more than the Doom or Toxic could...

Haven't bought a new ball yet(pro-shop was closed today), so options are still open...
Go How about you go to the pro-shop and ask him to watch you bowl and to get your axis coordinates. Tell him u dont want to shell out a lot of money and want to get a mid-performance ball. And tell him the reaction that you want and he should give u the right ball with the right drill. Its the best way to go about it.

[blistershurt]

I'd go with the Toxic personally, I threw it today with a strong drill and its a great ball, it is strong enough to stretch to the BW's lane conditions and yet mild enough to be used on some lighter conditions (i used it on a fried pair today, playing 25-10)

[Rowdy]

I'll agree that the No mercy's and Widow's soak up a lot of oil. Not to worry. Get some Powerhouse Energizer cleaners for whichever ball you decide on. They do a wonderful job of keeping the ball clean and keeping the action in the ball. There's also a new thing out called Hook Again. It's made by Ebonite,which is our parent company. You put the ball in the plastic chamber and fill it with the Hook Again Stuff. Come back the next day and 99.8% of the oil is out of the ball. So don't let the fact that the ball pulls up oil stop you. That's the way high performance balls work these days.

[slap]

WG,

Welcome to the boards.

Although you inquired about two the RAW Hammers, I would recommend the Black Widow Solid. The BWS is sensitive to speed and hand position adjustments, making it a very versatile ball in the right hands. With a bowler of your experience, I'm certain that you're highly skilled making these types of adjustments.