What is this layout?

[Bruizer]

Just joined the Hammer family with the purchase of my new 14lbs Raw Hammer Toxic. And actually it is my first non-polyester ball. Well today I went and got it drilled and had the pro shop guy fit me, watch me bowl, and then drill the ball. And this is how he drilled it:

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w196/BruizerSC/HammerToxicLayout.jpg

So what kind of layout is this and what can I expect? (I have no idea how far the pin is from my PAP.) I bowled 2 games after getting it drilled earlier this morning on fresh oil (as in I was the first person to use the lane after they had oiled it) and then 6 more games tonight on a lane at another bowling alley which had been oiled Thursday but the guy told me hardly anyone had use it. The results thus far: I get about as much hook as I do with a spare ball. So what is the problem? Using it on too heavy of oil, the drilling layout, or the user (I'm a stoker, low revs and low speed, and this is my first time trying to hook a non-polyester ball, so I guess it could be me and not getting enough lift.)?

[uberamd]

It looks like layout 4 (see: http://hammerbowling.com/tech_info/detail.php?drilling=Symmetric%20Core%20Drilling%20 Instructions)

It will have a smooth arc, so throw throwing it hard will not give it time to hook in. Also, realize that because you are a stroker (like me) it is hard to get good hook unless you have perfect form from what I have experienced. There are strokers on the PBA with good hook, but they have amazing form.

You should be trying to throw it straight over arrow 2 (ie line up on the second dot, throw over arrow 2), and allowing it to hook in, if you are trying to throw it out and have it come back, with low revs/speed chances are it will not come back at all. Also if you get it out too far, it will never recover and slide into the gutter.

Again, as a low rev stroker myself, I recommend throwing it down the second arrow, and letting it snap in. But you need to make sure you are getting good revs on the ball, so in my opinion you should have gotten finger grips and slugs that were a contrasting color so you could pick up on how your ball is rolling.

[idlehourlegend]

Its weird for a guy with low revs and low speed to go with no finger grips and such a stretched out span, that would cause you to get less lift. If I were you I would have tried finger grips to give you more lift and maybe even move the span in a little, but thats just me. I have mine drilled like yours but Im a high rev rate player so I have that to cut down my revs.

[Bruizer]

Well, like I said, this is my first go around with a non-polyester ball and my first fingertip grip. The only reason I didn't get inserts was because the other day, one of my friends who has been bowling for probably 8yrs told me that inserts can cause the ball to crack around the insert, so I was scared of that happening. I'm also beginning to wonder if I had the thumb done too big (which would be my fault because I'm use to clinching a ball with my inner thumb and didn't realize you are suppose to push back with your thumb instead and keep it straight, so when i was practicing with the ball I told him I thought the whole was too small because and I was trying to pull in with my thumb, now if I just try to keep my thumb straight I feel like the ball is gonna fly off in my back swing unless I try to hold it with my thumb and when i do that, unless I straighten my thumb immediately for I let go, the ball holds on and goes about a foot or so in the air before it comes back down to the lane.).

[uberamd]

Well, i would go for grips. My buddy's dad has had the same ball for years, never an issue. Grips are simply rubber they glue into the ball. I have only known 1 person to have a ball crack and that was after having it for a few years.

I like to buy a new ball, or 3 every season :) (only been bowling just over a year, but I am obsessive with equipment when it comes to bowling for some reason). Honestly, you need not worry about cracking. I have grips and a slug in all 3 of my balls, and I cant imagine not having them.

[Stampy79]

I have never had a problem with cracking between finger holes as long as I keep 1/4 in between the holes. One easy fix for the thumb is to have them put a slug in it. Always start small and work it out slowly. You can always make it bigger but making it smaller is a bit tougher

[Bruizer]

Yeah, I'm thinking about a thumb slug because my pro shop guy told me that you should be able to lift the ball in your back swing and your ball should hold onto you, you should have to grasp the ball with minimal effort. As it stands now, if I tried to lift that ball behind me and keep my thumb straight, I'm pretty sure the ball would just fall from my hand.

[idlehourlegend]

If the thumbs too big, stick a piece of tape in, still too big? stick another one.

[uberamd]

The thumb slug won't really grab your thumb, mine slides in and out with minimal contact but I bend my thumb to grip the ball on my backswing. You don't want it tight, because on your downswing, by the time your ball reaches your ankle, your thumb should be out of the ball and the weight should be on your fingers for the lift (according to the book Bowling Execution).

[Cobalt]

That layout looks like a standard design for bowlers with no PAP.

Measure the distance from the center of the pin to the middle of your bridge, it should be about 2"
Now draw a line from the middle of your bridge to the middle of your thumb hole. The CG mark should be 3/4" from that line you have just drawn.

Also, the problem with you getting no much hook could be the fact that your hand is at a low degrees when you release (i.e. behind the ball, making the ball spin "head-over-heels". You should try to have your hand more on the side of the ball when you release it so that you have rotation perpendicular to the lane.

Also, the oil patterns that you are using could be really heavy, causing low revs to not move much.

[Bruizer]

I'm beginning to think it is my technique and and hand position. I'll still probably take it back to the my pro shop guy and have him take a look at my thumb to make sure there isn't any problem there. But now that I think about it, I think you might be right about my hand positon. Possibly not having a good grip on the ball with my thumb might be causing me to mess my form up because I'm trying too hard to focus on keeping the ball from flying loose while at the same time keeping it from flying through the air because of bending my thumb inside trying to grip it.

[uberamd]

I'm beginning to think it is my technique and and hand position. I'll still probably take it back to the my pro shop guy and have him take a look at my thumb to make sure there isn't any problem there. But now that I think about it, I think you might be right about my hand positon. Possibly not having a good grip on the ball with my thumb might be causing me to mess my form up because I'm trying too hard to focus on keeping the ball from flying loose while at the same time keeping it from flying through the air because of bending my thumb inside trying to grip it.

I find it concerning that you are worried about your ball flying off your hand. I have never, ever had that concern and it has never happened to me. I suggest seeing if you can somehow get grips, as they do just that, grip. Thinking about the ball flying off your hand is a mental concern that will negatively effect your game.

[Bruizer]

I feel I'm grasping the ball too hard. Even when I push my thumb out inside the whole, I still feel I have to pull in with the upper inside of my thumb. I realized last night when I was bowling that I wasn't bowling with the same finess I usually have and most of the time I can get a spare ball to hook over a few boards.

[Pinseeker]

My new Anger is drilled very close to yours. I would recommend getting grips and a thumb slug. I never had a thumb slug on my old balls and had the same issue with gripping with my thumb...causes alot of tension in the thumb which results in thumb swelling...then you have other issues. I never have that problem with my new ball and have worked alot on my mechanics...I too, am a stroker and do not put alot of revs on the ball. I've learned to slow down as I also bowl on fresh heavy oil. I've also changed my position...I line up around board 13 (used to line up at 20/center) and throw around board 4-7. When you line up, your ball is naturally going to be line up about 7 boards from your foot line-up. Give that starting point a try, slow it down and see how that works for you. My new Anger was doing absolutely nothing the first game I threw (104) with it. I went in and talked to the pro and he came out and basically gave me a free lesson. Bowled a 203 during the lesson game finishing off with 5 in-a-row and leaving the 9 pin on my final shot. Get the grips and adjust your starting point and target. If you still struggle, get some lessons. It will definately help.

[5iron]

Before redoing your thumb try a peice of velcro on the back side of your thumb hole. The velcro will be tight but will allow you to not squeeze the ball during your arm swing. You will be surprised how easily the ball will come off your hand.

[Bruizer]

I'll go talk to my pro shop guy Tuesday, maybe tomorrow, and see what he has to say, through it around a bit, and go from there. Hopefully I can get everything straightened out because I must say its got me kind of depressed, kind of let the air out of my sails. Was excited all week waiting to get it drilled and tear up the lanes, but I guess its all about trial and error, examining the problem and fixing it.

[TenPinSniper]

That layout looks like a standard design for bowlers with no PAP.

Measure the distance from the center of the pin to the middle of your bridge, it should be about 2"
Now draw a line from the middle of your bridge to the middle of your thumb hole. The CG mark should be 3/4" from that line you have just drawn.

Also, the problem with you getting no much hook could be the fact that your hand is at a low degrees when you release (i.e. behind the ball, making the ball spin "head-over-heels". You should try to have your hand more on the side of the ball when you release it so that you have rotation perpendicular to the lane.

Also, the oil patterns that you are using could be really heavy, causing low revs to not move much.

This is pretty much right on, your drill is pretty much label. The good or bad here is that you'll improve now that you have a resin ball.

The Bad the ball was not drilled off your PAP. (This really not all bad for you right now.) We all started here...

The Good your a beginner and as you improve your PAP will change so, it doesn't matter as much right now.

So to sum this up your ball is drill okay for now.

You might have the proshop find your PAP on the Polyster Ball, just to keep track of the evolution of your release.


I feel I'm grasping the ball too hard. Even when I push my thumb out inside the whole, I still feel I have to pull in with the upper inside of my thumb. I realized last night when I was bowling that I wasn't bowling with the same finess I usually have and most of the time I can get a spare ball to hook over a few boards.

That will kill the hook faster than anything, bad release on fresh oil is a good way to get no hook or very little.

Before redoing your thumb try a peice of velcro on the back side of your thumb hole. The velcro will be tight but will allow you to not squeeze the ball during your arm swing. You will be surprised how easily the ball will come off your hand.

We'll if you add a piece of "Magic Carpet" aka Velcro (the loop side), you'll have to open up thumb hole so you don't rip off your skin and make your raw.

If you feel that your still having problems after the fit feels right, get with a coach.

[Bruizer]

Well guys, I just got back from the lane and it looks like 2 pieces of tape in the thumb did the trick. Ball still doesn't hook much. My pro guy came out and helped me and bit and pretty much I have to stand on the second dot and aim at the second or first arrow out by the gutter to get the ball to hook in. So, it looks like it will make a great dry lane ball and I can easily use it for makin' just about any spare. Might get it drilled a little more aggressive for later on, or I might just keep it for my medium to light game and pick up a Black Widow for heavy oil. Thanks for all the help guys.

[Rowdy]

Well guys, I just got back from the lane and it looks like 2 pieces of tape in the thumb did the trick. Ball still doesn't hook much. My pro guy came out and helped me and bit and pretty much I have to stand on the second dot and aim at the second or first arrow out by the gutter to get the ball to hook in. So, it looks like it will make a great dry lane ball and I can easily use it for makin' just about any spare. Might get it drilled a little more aggressive for later on, or I might just keep it for my medium to light game and pick up a Black Widow for heavy oil. Thanks for all the help guys.

I'll split the difference here,so the ball goes out to the 7 board and comes back to the pocket. Do I have this right? What else would you like the ball to do for you? I think breakfast in bed is out of the question though. Sounds like the ball works to me.

[uberamd]

I'll split the difference here,so the ball goes out to the 7 board and comes back to the pocket. Do I have this right? What else would you like the ball to do for you? I think breakfast in bed is out of the question though. Sounds like the ball works to me.

Its working on dry lanes, but I think he is looking for a heavier oil hooking ball.

[NeoWidow18]

I'll split the difference here,so the ball goes out to the 7 board and comes back to the pocket. Do I have this right? What else would you like the ball to do for you? I think breakfast in bed is out of the question though. Sounds like the ball works to me.

Just to back Rowdy up. Throw the ball where it wants to be thrown. You cant make a ball do something its not drilled to do.

Oh and all the "what layout is this" topics. Stop being so dump. look on the hammer website there all there. Or ask your proshop guys what its supposed to do.

[uberamd]

Just to back Rowdy up. Throw the ball where it wants to be thrown. You cant make a ball do something its not drilled to do.

Oh and all the "what layout is this" topics. Stop being so dump. look on the hammer website there all there. Or ask your proshop guys what its supposed to do.
Woah buddy. Not all drillers do straight layouts from Hammers sites. Also not everyone is as knowledgeable as you are and can't determine their layout if its a bit different from the sheet. Thats how I am, a lefty who has a driller that does deviate from layout sheets so i have trouble figuring out which layout I have. Give us a break...

[Rowdy]

Its working on dry lanes, but I think he is looking for a heavier oil hooking ball.

Uh,try throwing it on heavy oil first comes to mind. He hasn't even thrown the ball on heavy oil and KNOWS it's not gonna work??? What the....??? I didn't know The Amazing Kreskin had taken up bowling.........

[Rowdy]

Woah buddy. Not all drillers do straight layouts from Hammers sites. Also not everyone is as knowledgeable as you are and can't determine their layout if its a bit different from the sheet. Thats how I am, a lefty who has a driller that does deviate from layout sheets so i have trouble figuring out which layout I have. Give us a break...

I understood what Neo was trying to say. But how hard is it to compare all the holes and dots on a ball to the drilling sheet?

As for your dyslexic driller....get a new one.

[uberamd]

I understood what Neo was trying to say. But how hard is it to compare all the holes and dots on a ball to the drilling sheet?

As for your dyslexic driller....get a new one.

Its hard for me. I am a lefty, so I don't know what to flip, etc. Also, my driller takes my ball, and drills. Doesn't ask for sheets, etc. And I trust him so I don't bother asking him if he needs to see my layout sheet, according to his pro shop site "Gregg's 20 plus years of drilling and testing experience has enabled him to become one of the top ball drillers in the country."

[Cobalt]

Its hard for me. I am a lefty, so I don't know what to flip, etc. Also, my driller takes my ball, and drills. Doesn't ask for sheets, etc. And I trust him so I don't bother asking him if he needs to see my layout sheet, according to his pro shop site "Gregg's 20 plus years of drilling and testing experience has enabled him to become one of the top ball drillers in the country."

Nothing wrong with not needing a sheet to do a layout... plus he may have some in the back. My biggest concern is if he takes another one of your balls to read the PAP from it. If not, I wouldn't go back - he needs your PAP.
And I could claim being one of the best pro shop operators in the country, not to hard to just say it. And 20 years of experience really doesn't hold a lot of ground if he doesn't keep up with the technology and changes in bowling these days.

[Cobalt]

I understood what Neo was trying to say. But how hard is it to compare all the holes and dots on a ball to the drilling sheet?

You just flat out can't. Its just a picture of what a ball might look like when its drilled. It all depends on the bowler's PAP. If you look under the pictures, it'll tell you things like Pin distance and MB angle (if it has one). These are what determine the layouts.

[Bruizer]

I'll split the difference here,so the ball goes out to the 7 board and comes back to the pocket. Do I have this right? What else would you like the ball to do for you? I think breakfast in bed is out of the question though. Sounds like the ball works to me.

Whoa, Whoa. Why are some of you all of a sudden biting into me? First off, what I was sayin' earlier about where I throw the ball: I pretty much have to line up with the right gutter and let it go right next to it for it too hook in (I'm standing at the dot left of the furthest right, and aiming for the 1st arrow). I doesn't go out to any board, if it tried to go out it would land straight in the gutter. And unless I slow it down, the ball still rarely cuts enough to hit into the pocket. Sorry if I wanted a ball where I could throw it from the left side of the lane (cause I am use to standing on the furthest left dot, where now I have to stand to the second from the furthest right) to the right and it come back and hit the pocket as appose to throwing it along the gutter and it cutting in slightly. You seriously don't have to be a jerk about. I'm sorry if I'm new and don't know everything, but I thought this was a place to get help if I needed it, I've been researching all this stuff for the past couple of weeks. Second: I assumed it would be better for dry lanes because I was on fresh oil throwing from where I use to, the furthest left dot, and if I tried to throw the ball out, it was pretty much just go straight and hit around the 6 to 10 pin. I figured maybe a different drilling could remedy that and possibly make it cut back into the pocket. Like I said, unless I let the ball go by the gutter from the start, there is no hooking.

This is kind of what I was looking for, and yes I realize that is a different layout, but mine doesn't even hook that much throwing it along the gutter. If i tried to through like this my ball would hit around the 6 or 10 pin or maybe even gutter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdaxqcHrXZ0

[TenPinSniper]

Just to back Rowdy up. Throw the ball where it wants to be thrown. You cant make a ball do something its not drilled to do.

Oh and all the "what layout is this" topics. Stop being so dump. look on the hammer website there all there. Or ask your proshop guys what its supposed to do.

Not saying the drilling can't make a difference at all. So here it goes.

The Cover and Core will probably determine how the ball works for anyone than any other thing.

The Drilling really just makes sure you are going to get the desired ball reaction and shape.

When he asked which layout was provided, someone chimed in #4, I thought it could also, be pretty close to #3... but neither of us know without know his PAP.

While I'm at it, whats up with insulting the new member question. Remember we all had to start some where and I know we all have learned alot in the past year alone. Let alone since I have started bowling. None of us really knew how important determining our PAP would be.

This is a great place for open minded discussions and debating ideals. We all have learned many things while being here.

[NeoWidow18]

It is true that we have all learned alot from being on here. I didnt mean to bash him. Just some guys give there driller the ball and say drill it. Never once trying to get help or telling them what he wanted the ball to do. Not saying thats the case here. And some guys just get the ball drilled and expect it to roll the same way it does for someone else. Truth is you can layout the same exact ball (pin, cg, mb, weight, pap, ect.) and the 2 of them would roll diffrent. Just ask Rowdy about that. Also the last part of that post was for the guys who dont ask the driller anything. Go back and read some of the layout topics. Some start with, "I just go this ball and I wanted to know what its supposed to do on the lane. The driller just drilled it and never watched me throw the ball." These arnt your grandpa's (or Rowdys :D ) bowling balls. These things need your pap and axis rotaion and track and val to drill. The point is if you dont talk to the guy and he dont ask you questions then go to a shop that will.

[Bruizer]

It is true that we have all learned alot from being on here. I didnt mean to bash him. Just some guys give there driller the ball and say drill it. Never once trying to get help or telling them what he wanted the ball to do. Not saying thats the case here. And some guys just get the ball drilled and expect it to roll the same way it does for someone else. Truth is you can layout the same exact ball (pin, cg, mb, weight, pap, ect.) and the 2 of them would roll diffrent. Just ask Rowdy about that. Also the last part of that post was for the guys who dont ask the driller anything. Go back and read some of the layout topics. Some start with, "I just go this ball and I wanted to know what its supposed to do on the lane. The driller just drilled it and never watched me throw the ball." These arnt your grandpa's (or Rowdys :D ) bowling balls. These things need your pap and axis rotaion and track and val to drill. The point is if you dont talk to the guy and he dont ask you questions then go to a shop that will.

I actually had the guy watch me bowl with just a 10lbs spare (way too light) that had a conventional grip drill I had done a while back before he drilled it, but I never saw him map out the PAP. He said he would set me up for a basic starter layout, guess I just didn't realize how basic "basic" is. I should probably have just told him what I had been thinking about (pin right above the bridge of the fingers about 5" away from my PAP to get good length with some nice back end), but now I might would do something like 4.5" right below the bridge. Never really wanted to have to get the ball filled and re-drilled, but when I look at how common it is it wouldn't bother me to get it done. But I'll give the current layout a while, if I don't like it, I'll just get filled and re-drilled with a different layout. Like I said, this is kinda what I had wanted, but being a rookie at all this I figured I'd just trust my pro shop guy, who I know he knows what he is doin', its my fault for not telling him what I wanted because no one can read minds.

[NeoWidow18]

My Anger is drilled really close to your Toxic. Look here...

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h176/dragom_mage/AngerLayout.jpg

Besides the coverstock diffrence and the slight core diffrence the Toxic is polished and made to go longer. So a redrill may not be the first thing to think about. I would say get the proshop to sand the polish off of it and make it 2000 grit sanded like the anger. Of course I polished my anger to use it on med oil but that dosent affect you. lol Ive found it even works well on fresh polished. Anyway I would try it sanded before I redrill it. But thats just me. Remember you can always polish it agian.

[TenPinSniper]

It is true that we have all learned alot from being on here. I didnt mean to bash him. Just some guys give there driller the ball and say drill it. Never once trying to get help or telling them what he wanted the ball to do. Not saying thats the case here. And some guys just get the ball drilled and expect it to roll the same way it does for someone else. Truth is you can layout the same exact ball (pin, cg, mb, weight, pap, ect.) and the 2 of them would roll diffrent. Just ask Rowdy about that. Also the last part of that post was for the guys who dont ask the driller anything. Go back and read some of the layout topics. Some start with, "I just go this ball and I wanted to know what its supposed to do on the lane. The driller just drilled it and never watched me throw the ball." These arnt your grandpa's (or Rowdys :D ) bowling balls. These things need your pap and axis rotaion and track and val to drill. The point is if you dont talk to the guy and he dont ask you questions then go to a shop that will.


I see you point to Neo, but the with the information that was provided we did not know.

Fact of the matter is some drillers don't take the time to discuss these layouts with the customer as well.

The problem probably lane conditions the ball is being used on or the bowler. Have someone take a look at your release, they may need to take some video.

If you feel that your release is good, dull this ball up... awhile back some bowlers here really like their Toxic's dulled up.

Things you need to know once you start bowling seriously:
Drilling Considerations:
1. PAP
2. Pin Placement
3. MB
(Side notes balls with certain Pin Length's and Top Weights will aid in certain layouts and or ball reactions.)
4. CG (Make difference for weights holes.)

** CG may also help determine skid of ball before it reacts. We have been under the assumption that CG don't matter. But, one of the USBC Ball Motion Studies led me to be believe that they will help a ball skid further down the lane. (My question would be whether the used balls that maintain legal static weights.)

Heck the ball may not be fit right, sometimes driller don't hit the drill the first time.

[NeoWidow18]

Also Bruizer if you can get some video of you throwing the ball that may help.

[grayfin68]

My Anger is drilled really close to your Toxic. Look here...

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h176/dragom_mage/AngerLayout.jpg

Besides the coverstock diffrence and the slight core diffrence the Toxic is polished and made to go longer. So a redrill may not be the first thing to think about. I would say get the proshop to sand the polish off of it and make it 2000 grit sanded like the anger. Of course I polished my anger to use it on med oil but that dosent affect you. lol Ive found it even works well on fresh polished. Anyway I would try it sanded before I redrill it. But thats just me. Remember you can always polish it agian.

The Toxic and Anger have the same modified core. The Pain and Doom have the original Raw Core.

[NeoWidow18]

Oh, ok thanks for clearing that up.

[Bruizer]

Also Bruizer if you can get some video of you throwing the ball that may help.

I'll see what I can do. Might can get some Friday or Saturday when I drive home from college this weekend. Oh, and I'm at the University of South Carolina in Columbia and drive back to my hometown of Aiken, South Carolina every weekend. Just thought I'd mention that since I noticed you are from South Carolina.

[NeoWidow18]

I'll see what I can do. Might can get some Friday or Saturday when I drive home from college this weekend. Oh, and I'm at the University of South Carolina in Columbia and drive back to my hometown of Aiken, South Carolina every weekend. Just thought I'd mention that since I noticed you are from South Carolina.

Im from just out side of Moncks Corner.