Poll Time! Yes or No???

[Rowdy]

Here's the ballot you recieve one league night:

All USBC certified leagues will be bowled on a sport shot,NO exeptions!

Vote once.

Yes

No

Thank You for your vote.

Now,how do you vote?

[BubbaRay]

I thnk yes except for the juniopr leagues. the sport shot should be implimented for them slowly. Each week make the pattern just a tad harder. This way they can adjust weekly without to much difficulty untill they reach the full sport pattern. By that time they should be able to play the pattern.

[idlehourlegend]

I say yes without a doubt. Although I agree with Bubba the juniors should be brought up into it slowly to keep there interest. But I would welcome a harder shot with open arms, definately would be a great idea. But you are going to hear a lot of the higher average guys complaining that they dont want to bowl on it cause there precious 230 house shot average is going to drop to 180 because they cant play the same groove they've been playing for 10-15 years.

[Crusher279757]

I say no because the shot on my league is tough enough.

[Rowdy]

I say no because the shot on my league is tough enough.

How shortsighted. That's not what the question was.

[slap]

I voted no.

I'm still on the bandwagon for a true tiered system. If everyone was forced onto sport pattern, the amount of b---- and moaning would be a constant distraction.

I want to bowl in leagues with bowlers. People who have a passion for the game, people who are always trying to improve, people who practice when possible. Pay into pots, brackets and side pools. People who look forward to traveling to tournaments. Real bowlers. These are people who would accept the challenge of the sport tier.

[pipes]

I vote yes I have not bowled on a THS except for open bowling since I got back into the game 4 months ago . I started bowling once a week on a Sport Shot Sweeper tourney local here. And when I or IF I join a league it a be a PBA or sport shot league .

No I don't think I am better than some or hell I am not as good a bowler as most of you. but IMHO there is no real challenge to the THS around here . 1 house I know forsure had 4 / 300 games last week:eek: . Now that is just not right .

[Crusher279757]

I vote yes I have not bowled on a THS except for open bowling since I got back into the game 4 months ago . I started bowling once a week on a Sport Shot Sweeper tourney local here. And when I or IF I join a league it a be a PBA or sport shot league .

No I don't think I am better than some or hell I am not as good a bowler as most of you. but IMHO there is no real challenge to the THS around here . 1 house I know forsure had 4 / 300 games last week:eek: . Now that is just not right .

Tonight in my league there were at least 3 300 games shot. One guy almsot had back to back 300s. Threw a 300 in the second game and then a 299 in the third. Had a ringing ten pin to blow the other 300.

[bluerrpilot]

No...Plus economics wont let it happen. there is more work involved that you are unaware of. True sport shots must be certified. In order to certifiy them, tapes must be taken before and after bowling. The machines also run slower on some shots. Which means it could take upwards of an hour or more to oil the lanes. Although this isnt allot of work, it can be very time consuming for the staff and the centers. Which will get passed down the bowlers in higher fees and whatnot. Not all oil machines are even capable of putting down specific patterns. And if a house is going to have to shell out $70k for a machine, you can bet we will pay for it somehow.

[grayfin68]

I'd be in favor of it but I think fewer and fewer centers would bother certifying their leagues if it came down to that. I'm already seeing that with our center because they want to do a Kegel league instead of a PBA Exp league this summer due to not wanting to do tape readings and stuff. So, I'm going to assume other lane managers would take a similar stance.

[No Mercy07]

Yes.

Too many "bowlers" shooting too high at good ole Hermitage Lanes...

I mean come on now, I was throwing HORRIBLE today, Like I dont see how I even shot above 4

But I still shot 219 and a 220

I was EVERYWHERE on the lane...

[bluerrpilot]

I agree that alot of house shots are very easy. But its not hard to tighten the lanes up without the hassle of making it a sport shot.

Actually, if all they did was create an out of bounds around 7 or so, you would probably see those scores plumet. Take away the adult bumper bowling and they will cry like children.

[madaba]

No...Plus economics wont let it happen. there is more work involved that you are unaware of. True sport shots must be certified. In order to certifiy them, tapes must be taken before and after bowling. The machines also run slower on some shots. Which means it could take upwards of an hour or more to oil the lanes. Although this isnt allot of work, it can be very time consuming for the staff and the centers. Which will get passed down the bowlers in higher fees and whatnot. Not all oil machines are even capable of putting down specific patterns. And if a house is going to have to shell out $70k for a machine, you can bet we will pay for it somehow.

I agree with blue, I would like them to be, but I know it won't happen

[grayfin68]

I voted no.

I'm still on the bandwagon for a true tiered system. If everyone was forced onto sport pattern, the amount of b---- and moaning would be a constant distraction.

I want to bowl in leagues with bowlers. People who have a passion for the game, people who are always trying to improve, people who practice when possible. Pay into pots, brackets and side pools. People who look forward to traveling to tournaments. Real bowlers. These are people who would accept the challenge of the sport tier.

You make some good points Slap. Competitive bowlers will seek out tougher challenges and tournaments with sport patterns. Forcing everyone to bowl on sport patterns may not be the answer and it could hurt the sport overall by pissing off the average league bowlers (who are the majority).

[dqnjuan]

I voted yes on USBC leagues being a sport shot. Ive only bowled on a sport shot once for a couple of practice throws and want to try some sport shots as my experience grows. I feel its the way the sport is going and Id perfer to have a challange and learn the hard way.


Plus you can still bowl on non sanctioned leagues, practice and good old rock and bowls for your same old house shot.

[grayfin68]

I voted yes on USBC leagues being a sport shot. Ive only bowled on a sport shot once for a couple of practice throws and want to try some sport shots as my experience grows. I feel its the way the sport is going and Id perfer to have a challange and learn the hard way.

Plus you can still bowl on non sanctioned leagues, practice and good old rock and bowls for your same old house shot.

Most leagues are not going to want to give up their USBC sanction status but I imagine that is what would happen IF the USBC required them to go to sport shots. If that happens, USBC sanctioned leagues will probably be about as rare as PBA Experience leagues.

Don't get me wrong though. I am all for sport shots in sanctioned leagues but I just don't think it is a realistic expectation.

[BubbaRay]

I agree that alot of house shots are very easy. But its not hard to tighten the lanes up without the hassle of making it a sport shot.

Actually, if all they did was create an out of bounds around 7 or so, you would probably see those scores plumet. Take away the adult bumper bowling and they will cry like children.

That would a reverse block by putting 7 out out of bounds. That's a tough pattern to play for sure.

[Thepainscoming]

That would a reverse block by putting 7 out out of bounds. That's a tough pattern to play for sure. I think he meant like putting a bit more oil outside there so that you can't miss right as much as u want and get it to come back.

[BubbaRay]

That's what I meant by the reverse bloc. Dry from 8 in and oiled from 7 out to gutter. Makes for a fun night or tournament. Either you are comming light or going high or crossing over. :confused:

[bluerrpilot]

That's what I meant by the reverse bloc. Dry from 8 in and oiled from 7 out to gutter. Makes for a fun night or tournament. Either you are comming light or going high or crossing over. :confused:

Rev blocks are definetly tough. But what I would like to see is what a house back in Cali used to do. There THS was 36 feet, 8to8, xmas tree type block, aprox. 20to1 ratio. There kicker was from 1 to 7 was flat oil to 40 feet and about the same volume as what was around the 10 board. It still hade some bumper to bounce the ball off but its wasnt as wide as a truck. It effectivly narrowed the lane by those 7 boards so people couldnt wing it from the center of the lane to the gutter. And if you wanted to play out there in that oil outside, you better be Walter Ray accurate

[JaraTo]

That's what I meant by the reverse bloc. Dry from 8 in and oiled from 7 out to gutter. Makes for a fun night or tournament. Either you are comming light or going high or crossing over. :confused:

I have to deal with our patterns natural migration to reverse block if you know what I mean. Straight bowlers ripping it up the middle. As huge as our league is a there are only a maybe 15 bowlers who actually "know" what they are doing. The ones who feel robbed when their bad entry angle causes anything but a strike. I voted yes, but it also depends on the participants I suppose. By the end of the night in that league I'm either dealing with wet/dry or a reverse block...

[Thepainscoming]

JaraTo, same here, im in youth leagues so my team and I just stay outside and play the easier part of the lane while the other teams are throwing straight balls up the middle. Keeps it pretty fresh, i love when we bowl a team that hooks the ball.

[bubbiesdad]

Crusher said,


"I say no because the shot on my league is tough enough."





Tonight in my league there were at least 3 300 games shot. One guy almsot had back to back 300s. Threw a 300 in the second game and then a 299 in the third. Had a ringing ten pin to blow the other 300.


I guess if the shot wasn't as tough as you say, there would have been more.

[2KDriver]

I say no due to Bowling being a social activity...lots of people want to improve their game and would welcome additional challenges...just as many people look at bowling as an excuse to get together and socialize, i.e. trade recipes, plan outings or just hang out together! No need to eliminate one aspect of the game to promote another!:)

[TenPinSniper]

I'm already seeing that with our center because they want to do a Kegel league instead of a PBA Exp league this summer due to not wanting to do tape readings and stuff. So, I'm going to assume other lane managers would take a similar stance.

Voted No as well, the better league should be on tougher ratio'd shots.

I'm all for Sport/PBA/Competitive Conditions at the Higher Levels of the Sport. The Kegel Tougher Shot Leagues are a good start towards getting the sport back where it needs to be. Take what you can get.

Think the 20:1 block shot the USBC allows is way to much, with the modern bowling ball. Think taking the limit down to 15:1 for a season or two and see if it needs to be lowered from there would be a good start. Maybe some volume restrictions... having a certain volume or certain minimums... think raising the minimums units to 4-6 units would be good to start too. Believe right now we have a 3 unit minimum... I hate to be see alot of houses drop volumes in the middle of the lanes, I'd like to see the outside volumes raises some... even Blue's ideal of the out of bounds would be good.

We had a drier shot last week... probably due to weather. The people who barely hook the ball.. had the ball hooking and a few of them that had some help, luck and knew how to adjust where shooting lights out. Made it more difficult for some... was interesting to see. I ended up around 21 out to around 6-7-8 off the bumper to score. Eariler this week I in there again due to the high amount of Hammer Sponges on the pair.:D Think there where 3 BWP, BW, my NMB... couple of Ebonites Bash and Infinite One.

Not doubting that there may not be machine that run more, but to me Kegel are the Standard in Lane Machine Technolgy... Even 30k is expensive for a center to drop on a new machine... without passing the cost on to the bowlers somewhere. I've heard people talking about machine costing around $45... but I have not seen a price sheet showing that. Not saying anybody is wrong.;)

This show retail value of the Walker at more than 32k
http://www.bobsbusiness.com/Specials_files/2008/kegelseminars.pdf
Here is an ad for a Used Machine. Should get the job done.
http://www.free-e-ad.com/view.php?id=16475

[Alucious]

Absolutely not.

Bowling isn't what we talk about here in these forums, and what we see in our leagues every night. Bowling is a recreational sport. There are 5 to 1 recreational bowlers in leagues, to competitive bowlers, if not more. Those recreational bowlers probably don't know what a sport shot is, or what its like to bowl on anything but their traditional THS. Some of us competitive bowlers like to take a night and bowl in our 220-230 average league, to relax. To know that we can miss 3 or 4 boards and not have to worry. You bowl three nights a week on PBA leagues and your stress level is going to shoot through the roof. If you want to bowl on a PBA shot, bowl on a PBA shot. It isn't our privilege to take away the fun of bowling from a recreational bowler.


Why do people care so much about other bowlers 230 averages? If you are tossing a 200 average out there on a sport shot, you know you are a better bowler. Have them bowl you on a sport shot, if they wont, then you know what kind of bowler they are. If you seriously think that you're better then all these 230 average bowlers, and want to bowl all the time on a sport shot, go get your PBA card and bowl nothing but regionals.

I really think all this crying about having every league a sport shot is pointless. Sure, maybe 10% of us competitive bowlers want it, but a poll on a High performance ball company's forums does not truly represent the millions of bowlers out there who just want to have fun.


Hopefully someone gets something from this post, about how selfish some people are being wanting all the shots changed to sport.



Bobby

[Rowdy]

Absolutely not.

Bowling isn't what we talk about here in these forums, and what we see in our leagues every night. Bowling is a recreational sport. There are 5 to 1 recreational bowlers in leagues, to competitive bowlers, if not more. Those recreational bowlers probably don't know what a sport shot is, or what its like to bowl on anything but their traditional THS. Some of us competitive bowlers like to take a night and bowl in our 220-230 average league, to relax. To know that we can miss 3 or 4 boards and not have to worry. You bowl three nights a week on PBA leagues and your stress level is going to shoot through the roof. If you want to bowl on a PBA shot, bowl on a PBA shot. It isn't our privilege to take away the fun of bowling from a recreational bowler.


Why do people care so much about other bowlers 230 averages? If you are tossing a 200 average out there on a sport shot, you know you are a better bowler. Have them bowl you on a sport shot, if they wont, then you know what kind of bowler they are. If you seriously think that you're better then all these 230 average bowlers, and want to bowl all the time on a sport shot, go get your PBA card and bowl nothing but regionals.

I really think all this crying about having every league a sport shot is pointless. Sure, maybe 10% of us competitive bowlers want it, but a poll on a High performance ball company's forums does not truly represent the millions of bowlers out there who just want to have fun.


Hopefully someone gets something from this post, about how selfish some people are being wanting all the shots changed to sport.



Bobby

Your logic train left the station without you. "Bowling isn't what we talk about here in these forums"...What the...??? What do you think we're talking about here,cookie recipies???? Bowling is ALL we talk about. Yeesh.

You're rolling in a 220-230 league where you can miss by 3 or 4 boards and still strike??? Must be one sweet house shot. I'd relax too if I could be 4 boards off and strike.

Why do I care about your 230 average? Because your average is a fraud,plain and simple. You couldn't average 180 where I roll. If that. Thats the purpose of making a sport shot mandatory. Everyone is rolling off the same page. Your 200 and my 200 will mean the same thing. The playing field will be level for the first time.

As far as the recreational bowler,they could care less whats on the lane. They roll for fun. 95% of them throw a straight ball anyway,so hows a sport shot gonna affect them? It won't. They'll still roll their 140-150's like always.

It never ceases to amaze me how you guys with the fluffy house shots and over inflated averages are the first to stand up and cry,"Hell no" when sport shots are brought up. Talk about selfish,go look in the mirror,Sport.

[Rowdy]

I say no due to Bowling being a social activity...lots of people want to improve their game and would welcome additional challenges...just as many people look at bowling as an excuse to get together and socialize, i.e. trade recipes, plan outings or just hang out together! No need to eliminate one aspect of the game to promote another!:)

Once you start keeping score it ceases to be a "social activity". It then becomes a competition. The social butterflys can have a NON-sanctioned league.

[Alucious]

The playing field is level. I am not throwing my 210 average at my house at your 210 at your house. If I threw at your house, maybe I would average lower, but I doubt it. I bowl at one of the toughest houses in the state, house shot wise. Most people who hold a 200 here will hold 215's elsewhere. What I am saying, is some guys 230 at some house has nothing to do with your 210 at yours. You both bowl at the same house, on the same shot, then see whos the better bowler.

[JaraTo]

Absolutely not.

Bowling isn't what we talk about here in these forums, and what we see in our leagues every night. Bowling is a recreational sport. There are 5 to 1 recreational bowlers in leagues, to competitive bowlers, if not more. Those recreational bowlers probably don't know what a sport shot is, or what its like to bowl on anything but their traditional THS. Some of us competitive bowlers like to take a night and bowl in our 220-230 average league, to relax. To know that we can miss 3 or 4 boards and not have to worry. You bowl three nights a week on PBA leagues and your stress level is going to shoot through the roof. If you want to bowl on a PBA shot, bowl on a PBA shot. It isn't our privilege to take away the fun of bowling from a recreational bowler.


Why do people care so much about other bowlers 230 averages? If you are tossing a 200 average out there on a sport shot, you know you are a better bowler. Have them bowl you on a sport shot, if they wont, then you know what kind of bowler they are. If you seriously think that you're better then all these 230 average bowlers, and want to bowl all the time on a sport shot, go get your PBA card and bowl nothing but regionals.

I really think all this crying about having every league a sport shot is pointless. Sure, maybe 10% of us competitive bowlers want it, but a poll on a High performance ball company's forums does not truly represent the millions of bowlers out there who just want to have fun.


Hopefully someone gets something from this post, about how selfish some people are being wanting all the shots changed to sport.



Bobby

Remember we are talking about USBC sanctioned leagues only. This does not refer to ALL leagues.

[Rowdy]

The playing field is level. I am not throwing my 210 average at my house at your 210 at your house. If I threw at your house, maybe I would average lower, but I doubt it. I bowl at one of the toughest houses in the state, house shot wise. Most people who hold a 200 here will hold 215's elsewhere. What I am saying, is some guys 230 at some house has nothing to do with your 210 at yours. You both bowl at the same house, on the same shot, then see whos the better bowler.

Fine. You're on. I'm going to Boston to see Slap later this summer,so it won't be a problem to stop off and see how tough this house shot of yours is. I'll get with you before I leave and you can tell me where this cream puff house is at so we can see what's what. I'll even stop BEFORE I see Slap so there won't be any crying about how I just got some lessons and improved my game. Practice hard.

[BubbaRay]

This can be a tough question to answer because each person that answers it will have a different opinion on the history of the sport and overall knowledge of the sport of bowling.

To understand sport bowling, one must understand oil patterns first. A typical house shot (THS) will have a high volume of oil toward the center of the lane and will taper the lane with less volume horizontally toward the outside of the lane, or near the gutter. Oil will also be tapered vertically down the lane with a heavy volume in the front of the lane or near the foul line, and less oil toward the back end of the oil pattern, or closer to the pins. A THS will generally only put oil on the first 37-44 feet of the lane, which means that last 16-23 feet are usually left dry.

This type of pattern gives those bowlers who "hook" the ball a large margin of error when it comes to ball speed, entry angle into the pocket, release variables, and overall trajectory of the ball. Missing the target to the outside of one's mark will allow the ball to hit the drier boards and hook back into the pocket. Missing the target to the inside of one's mark will allow the ball to skid through the wetter boards and still hit the pocket. The vertical tapering of the oil pattern will increase hitting power by allowing the drier backends to get the ball to drive harder into the pocket at preferable entry angles.

One way to explain the THS is to look at miniature golf or putt putt, whatever you call it. We've all played putt putt and have noticed that some courses are really easy, and others seem quite difficult. A THS can best be described by that hole in putt putt where the green is concaved or sloped toward the hole, thus making it very difficult to actually miss the cup. As long as you get within a few feet of the cup, the concaved green will pull the ball right into the cup! A sport shot can best be described as a flat green that gives you no help with putting the ball into the cup.

A sport shot is simply a flatter oil pattern. Generally speaking, the vertical taper of the oil pattern is identical to that of the THS. The difference comes in the horizontal tapering of the shot. The average sport shot will still have higher volume of oil inside and less volume toward the gutters, but the ratio of oil is the big difference. A THS has no limit to the ratio of oil, so one bowling center may put 90 units of oil in the center of the lane and only 3 on the outside boards near the gutters. This would make for a 30-1 oil ratio of highest volume to lowest volume. Sport shots limit the ratio to either 2-1, 2.5-1, or 3-1 depending on the lane surface that is used. So if there are 90 units in the middle of the lane, the outside boards must have at least 45 units at the same vertical distance down the lane. The vertical tapering of the pattern will decrease the number of units in both the middle and the outside as the pattern approaches the pins, but the horizontal oil ratio must always remain within the 2-1, 2.5-1, or 3-1 parameters at any given vertical distance down the lane.

Generally speaking on a sport shot, if you miss your target to the outside, the ball will not hook back to the pocket. If you miss your target to the inside, then the ball will hook past the pocket. What has so many people upset about sport bowling is that, if you perform well then you are rewarded. Whereas if you perform poorly, you will not be compensated. The goal with sport bowling is to measure the talent of the bowler on any given day.
Sport shots put an emphasis on accuracy, consistency, and repeatability; whereas a THS will generally give the bowler a false sense of achievement even when poor shots are thrown.

Good golfers like to play the championship tees and on more challenging golf courses. Good bowlers are starting to understand that concept as well, and a demand for sport bowling is slowly arising. Better lane surfaces, pin deck treatment, oil viscosity, more advanced oiling procedures, and just more technology overall has given the bowling center proprietor a better opportunity to put out extremely "friendly" scoring conditions. Understanding all of this is the key to understanding why many people have quit the sport and why many new bowlers don't stick around very often.

[Rowdy]

So after all that,yes or no,Bubba.

[2KDriver]

Once you start keeping score it ceases to be a "social activity". It then becomes a competition. The social butterflys can have a NON-sanctioned league.

Gee Rowdy, just when did GOD die and let you :confused: take over?

[Rowdy]

Gee Rowdy, just when did GOD die and let you :confused: take over?

The day I became a parent. The phrase I prefer is,"Benevolent Dictator".:) Thank You.

[hbhammerhead]

i think that there is still a need for a ths, because of the money aspect of course, but there are a lot of people that really don't know how they match up on a sport shot (like me) because their house doesn't offer it. it makes me wonder how i would do and i'm sure that it wouldn't be pretty at first but i feel that i have gotten the main idea down. anyways...maybe they should just make the "for fun" leagues have a ths and not be certified and all the competetive leagues certified and bowl on a sport shot. that way everyone wins because people who bowl for fun aren't really trying to win awards and get into the pba and people who are serious and want to move on to the next level can do it without the help of the ths, thus making them a better bowler. just my opinion.

[Alucious]

The USBC wouldn't go through with it, because all those "for-fun" leagues wouldn't be paying dues. They lose out on all their precious cash they need to move.

[Rowdy]

The USBC wouldn't go through with it, because all those "for-fun" leagues wouldn't be paying dues. They lose out on all their precious cash they need to move.

Wrong-O! The 'for fun" leagues have the easiest house shots and the highest inflated scores. They LOVE those USBC awards they "earned". Those are the cretins who will scream bloody murder when we try to take away their bumper bowling. They don't want to be found out for the frauds they are.

[BubbaRay]

So after all that,yes or no,Bubba.

I voted already, it's a yes

[BubbaRay]

The USBC wouldn't go through with it, because all those "for-fun" leagues wouldn't be paying dues. They lose out on all their precious cash they need to move.


If they loose enough members , maybe, just maybe it would open their eyes and start listening to us and pay attention to more of what we expect and not what they expect.

[acvar]

I would vote for all leagues to be sport shots, but not just because it benefits my game. I would vote for all sport shots because it would be the end of the USBC, and as far as I am concerned that would be a good thing.

[Rowdy]

This is fascinating. We have votes from enough guys to field an entire league. Two thirds of the league wouldn't like the house shot and would vote to change it. Interesting. Very interesting.

[TenPinSniper]

Thing is Rowdy, there a few of us that voted "No", that perfer Sport Bowling.

[Rowdy]

See other poll.

Oops,you did.

My bad.