backup ball , I am not sure

[Curacao_Dejavu]

I have said in the past , that I throw a backup ball, which was actuall based on what other people said the way I was throwing.

yesterday I finally read some info about backup ball trowers , and I dont think I throw that way.
A backup thrower is described as thowing the backup clockwise, and I am not doing that.
I throw the ball on a straight line , parallel as the boards, the ball goes a fair amount straight and then curves to the right. When I am releasing the ball I use my ring finger and middle finger to give it some lift and rotation.

If you look at my hand you will notice that my middle finger is not straight, the top half is bending to the right (seeing from above), the ring finger is bending is straighter , but has some slight curve to the right and left (not very noticeble though), This happened as I used to play volleyball also, and I was one of the blockers at the net.

I have also included some foto's of the ball (bwp) itself, so you can see the drilling. and also some foto's on the way I am holding the ball. ( I am a right handler). Those are made from the ground to the ball.

http://leopoldgiterson.spaces.live.com/?lc=1033


Any comments are helpfull.
Thx.

Leopold

[idlehourlegend]

If you are right handed and your ball is hooking to the right then you do throw a backup ball. It looks the me like your finger holes are drilled straight across from each other, but your ring finger looks to be substantially shorter than your middle, so to get a little more leverage you may want to have your driller drop your ring finger hole down a bit could help you get better rotation and hit it more. Could just be me seeing it that way but it does look smaller.

[Curacao_Dejavu]

, but your ring finger looks to be substantially shorter than your middle,.

on photo 6 ??

adding the past:
3 years ago when using houseballs, i was throwing towards the pins, between 1 and 3. No curves ,neither right or left.
When I got the tornado which was drilled for a straight shooter, the ball started to curve to the right, and it has ever been liked that.
last year with the new balls they were drilled for a backup ball thrower.
I actually feel the bwp is hooking more than the nm, but the tornado is hooking much more then both of them.
With the tornado I was all the way to the left of the lane throwing to pin 1-2between the first and second arrow, with the bwp and the nm I am playing more to the right, 1 or 2 boards to the right of the third arrow. (I start at the left)

what do you guys think.

Leopold

[idlehourlegend]

on photo 6 ??

adding the past:
3 years ago when using houseballs, i was throwing towards the pins, between 1 and 3. No curves ,neither right or left.
When I got the tornado which was drilled for a straight shooter, the ball started to curve to the right, and it has ever been liked that.
last year with the new balls they were drilled for a backup ball thrower.
I actually feel the bwp is hooking more than the nm, but the tornado is hooking much more then both of them.
With the tornado I was all the way to the left of the lane throwing to pin 1-2between the first and second arrow, with the bwp and the nm I am playing more to the right, 1 or 2 boards to the right of the third arrow. (I start at the left)

what do you guys think.

Leopold

On both photos 6 and 7 it looks like that, now with the tornado and bwp and NM the tornado should hook the least, but if its drilled for a straight bowler, he may have drilled it for the most hook possible with that ball thats the only thing that would make sense to me. Because out of the 3 depending on drillings and surface of course, the nm should hook the most out of the 3 then the BWP then the NM. do the balls all feel the same? does the tornado have a better feel than the other 2?

[Curacao_Dejavu]

The tornado feels better (it's also the lightest 14 pounds vs the 15 pounds of the nm and bwp.

"nm should hook the most out of the 3 then the BWP then the NM"
I can not follow you.

"its drilled for a straight bowler, he may have drilled it for the most hook possible with that ball "
I do not understand this part. (might be my basic understanding of this)
If it's drilled for a straight bowler , how can it be also drilled for the most possible hook.

Leopold

[idlehourlegend]

The tornado feels better (it's also the lightest 14 pounds vs the 15 pounds of the nm and bwp.

"nm should hook the most out of the 3 then the BWP then the NM"
I can not follow you.

"its drilled for a straight bowler, he may have drilled it for the most hook possible with that ball "
I do not understand this part. (might be my basic understanding of this)
If it's drilled for a straight bowler , how can it be also drilled for the most possible hook.

Leopold

thats what it seemed like, you might be better off with 14 if its more comfortable for you.

That was a typo, the last NM should have said tornado instead of NM.

Because if a person throws the ball straight, I know they did this with my friends atleast, the guy drilled it for the most possible hook, so that he would guet the most help possible with the ball moving when he wanted to learn to throw it that way. Thought your driller may have done this with yours also. It would be nice to see the layout on that one.

[Curacao_Dejavu]

added the nm and tornado to the link

Leopold

[Curacao_Dejavu]

thats what it seemed like, you might be better off with 14 if its more comfortable for you.
so that he would guet the most help possible with the ball moving when he wanted to learn to throw it that way.

Had a feeling that the 14 would be better, anyway that's done already. Will remember that for the future.

I understand now.

thanks for the explications so far.

Leopold

[knd]

My Mom throws right handed and it rolls left then breaks right. Is that a back up ball?

[Curacao_Dejavu]

yes

Leopold

[Rowdy]

My Mom throws right handed and it rolls left then breaks right. Is that a back up ball?

You bet. It comes from having a weak wrist at release. The ball is rolling off the right side of her hand.

If she's not a serious bowler don't try to fix it. Just let her roll and enjoy the game.

[knd]

She was a serious bowler back in the 70s and 80s and hasn't really bowled since then but she is now thinking of bowling again. any advise how to fix or will the use of wrist support untill her strengh builds up fix the problem? thanks

[Curacao_Dejavu]

Was she throwing a backup ball in the past too ?
What's her age ?
Last year they tried to "convert" me from throwing a backup ball to a "normal" release using a wrist support, but after 5-10 lessons I stopped.
mainly because I was throwing the backup ball during competition in order to maintain my average but the normal release during pratice. She will have to do one or the other.

Leopold

[knd]

She used to throw straight the old fashion way. She is 62 now and has lost alot of strength in her hand . Ibelive its because she has stopped whipping me and my brother over 30 years ago.

[Curacao_Dejavu]

my parents are around that age too.
I would say, use a lighter ball, use a wrist support and check the drilling. The guys with more experience :rolleyes: in here should be able to say something about this.

Leopold

[Rowdy]

A wrist support will be a good idea no matter what. See what kind of ball she throws after a month or so back in the game. Then go from there.

[Curacao_Dejavu]

On both photos 6 and 7 it looks like that, now with the tornado and bwp and NM the tornado should hook the least, but if its drilled for a straight bowler, he may have drilled it for the most hook possible with that ball thats the only thing that would make sense to me. Because out of the 3 depending on drillings and surface of course, the nm should hook the most out of the 3 then the BWP then the NM. do the balls all feel the same? does the tornado have a better feel than the other 2?

I am still somewhat confused about the hooking.
From the specs from the hammer website I have this.
For differentials, the higher the differential number (.058), the greater the overall hook potential. The lower the differential number (.040), the lower the hook potential.


The specs BWP
15#
RG DIFF
2.50 .060

Specs NM
RG DIFF
2.51 .056

Should not the bwp hook more then the NM ?
But like Idle said, and so far in my experience ,the NM is hooking far more than the BWP (at 2000) while the bwp is behaving almost like a staright ball.


I am starting to look for another ball, that behaves like the NM but for lighter oil conditions than the NM (from what I read the NM is for medium to heavy oil, so I guess I am looking for light to medium oil)


which of the newer balls do you guy's suggest that I can use. ?
And for the BWP is it possible to do something with it that It can have some more hook ?

Leopold

[slap]

the higher diff of bwp means it has the potential to flare more than the nm. that said it's difficult to predict ball motion based on rg and diff alone.

[idlehourlegend]

I am still somewhat confused about the hooking.
From the specs from the hammer website I have this.
For differentials, the higher the differential number (.058), the greater the overall hook potential. The lower the differential number (.040), the lower the hook potential.


The specs BWP
15#
RG DIFF
2.50 .060

Specs NM
RG DIFF
2.51 .056

Should not the bwp hook more then the NM ?
But like Idle said, and so far in my experience ,the NM is hooking far more than the BWP (at 2000) while the bwp is behaving almost like a staright ball.


I am starting to look for another ball, that behaves like the NM but for lighter oil conditions than the NM (from what I read the NM is for medium to heavy oil, so I guess I am looking for light to medium oil)


which of the newer balls do you guy's suggest that I can use. ?
And for the BWP is it possible to do something with it that It can have some more hook ?

Leopold

To get more hook with the bwp, go to your pro shop and have him take it down to 2000 abralon. Try it and see how you like it and if it hooks too much then polish it and it will be perfect, everyone agrees on this and this is how mine is done.
As for the new balls, what kind of reaction are you looking for?

[Curacao_Dejavu]

at the moment the bwp is as 2000 no polish.
But still it does not hook.
By estimate the NM does hook at the last 2 feet with a 20 degree angle to the right.

[idlehourlegend]

at the moment the bwp is as 2000 no polish.
But still it does not hook.
By estimate the NM does hook at the last 2 feet with a 20 degree angle to the right.

Do you clean it often and if so with what and how often?

Every NM I saw was a hook monster for most of the guys that threw it so I dont know if its not drilled correctly (most of them werent), but if your tornado(a ball with a pancake core) is hooking more than these ball then something is wrong.

[JaraTo]

Remember from previous he does have alot of ball speed with that back up ball idle.

[idlehourlegend]

Remember from previous he does have alot of ball speed with that back up ball idle.

Yea I did forget about that and thanks for reminding me, just figured his driller would have took that into consideration when drilling it, unless its a real lot.

[Curacao_Dejavu]

Remember from previous he does have alot of ball speed with that back up ball idle.

yeah, that's another topic.
I will update on that later, just made a phonecall as of writing. the speed is not measuring mph.

I use the power house to clean both balls. I play about 7-10 games a week.
I clean them 1-2 x a month, every 3 months I bring them to the proshop to clean.

Which cleaners do you recommend.

You can see the drilling layout at http://leopoldgiterson.spaces.live.com

as always thanks for the comments.

Leopold

[JaraTo]

That means you're cleaning them at most every 40 games. I would reccommend more frequently. What is the pro shop doing when they clean them. That's after every 120 games.

[Curacao_Dejavu]

He puts it on a spinner.
Spins, some cleaning stuff, some polishing stuff.
The last time I asked to bring the bwp to 2000.

Will probabbly hasve to do something with the NM as that one appeared to have some punctures now.

any comments on the layout.
I would appreciated that.

I will have to add that he seems to now whats he's doing.
The ball is behaving as he expects to, he's saying that I have to loosen my wrist or something. Next month I will have some practise sessions with him, so he can show me what's he is referring to.

Leopold

[Rowdy]

I am still somewhat confused about the hooking.
From the specs from the hammer website I have this.
For differentials, the higher the differential number (.058), the greater the overall hook potential. The lower the differential number (.040), the lower the hook potential.


The specs BWP
15#
RG DIFF
2.50 .060

Specs NM
RG DIFF
2.51 .056

Should not the bwp hook more then the NM ?
But like Idle said, and so far in my experience ,the NM is hooking far more than the BWP (at 2000) while the bwp is behaving almost like a staright ball.


I am starting to look for another ball, that behaves like the NM but for lighter oil conditions than the NM (from what I read the NM is for medium to heavy oil, so I guess I am looking for light to medium oil)


which of the newer balls do you guy's suggest that I can use. ?
And for the BWP is it possible to do something with it that It can have some more hook ?

Leopold

Those specs are for the POTENTIAL hook for that ball. It has to be drilled and thrown correctly to get the performance out of it.

As for cleaning a ball,I used alcohol every time and run the ball through the hot water bucket around every 50 games. Twice a year the ball goes through the Hook Again treatment to get all the oil out of it.

[Curacao_Dejavu]

to stay on topic.

the speed is measured in km/h NOT mph. I can not believe I overlooked this for so long.
so 22 km/h is +_ 14 mph.

So smart me thinks, I can throw harder.
timig off.
balance off
arm swing felt really weird
On 2 balls , thumb and finger next to the pink are not able to exit cleanly (maybe cleaning liquid came into the holes also)
Fingers were and still are swollen.
almost no pockets, if there was a strike most of the time it was a brooklyn.

I think I was overly exited , needed to calm down, so I order a mix drink.
Turns out since this is an official rank classification tournament, they may not serve alcohol :confused: :eek:

The score dows not show it since I scored on average a 170, which is higher then my current average , but the whole night I was really struggling.


I hate to keep asking about the layout but I do not know what kind of layout that is.
I want to understand more about that, and if I know what layout that is I can start looking into on what kind of reaction to look for or how the ball is suppose to move with certain layouts.

Leopold

[Curacao_Dejavu]

one more question:
when the fingers swell up, I started to let the ball rest in the palm of my hand and thumb, and when throwing using my fingertips.
Comparing when I throw normally i use my fingers also to "hold" the ball.
Although my swings were still bad, I noticed that the ball was hooking more.

Which hold is better ?

Leopold