EARLIER roll VS LENGTH

[PASSIONATEBOWLER]

What affect does a ball that rolls sooner (i.e., the Columbia Resurgence), vs a ball that goes longer (i.e., the Black Widow Bite), have on heavy oiled lanes? I bowl 14 - 15 mph, with medium revs.

I currently use my Black Widow solid on heavy oil lanes, but am looking for something that will grab the lanes more.

[JaraTo]

Coverstock adjustment and Drilling Layout are more important than the ball type. Both balls can do the opposite of what you just said about them.

[bluerrpilot]

It depends on where your playing the lane and the reaction you need in the back. If your playing deep and need more pop in the back, then you need something that will store energy longer and move harder off the friction. If you need more of a hook set reaction then something earlier will work.

[BubbaRay]

It's a bit difficult to cross over from one company to another for comparisons, but not impossible. For example, when a company rates its ball as its most-hooking ball, this means the ball is quicker to start its hooking action than all of the company's other offerings.

Sometimes because of lane conditions, a high-performance ball that is rated to hook the least will outhook the ball that is rated to hook the most. This happens when the hooking ball grabs the lane too soon and loses rotation very early. This ball will straighten out quickly and look like it's going straight. The ball that rolls the longest and is rated to hook the least may get down the lane and lose its rotation much later, allowing the ball to hook more at the back end. You'll see this ball hooking down the lane, while the hooking ball breaks so early it's difficult to see.

First, think about where you want the ball to fit in relation to the current equipment you have. With that in mind, decide on the cover stock you want. You can choose from a Solid to a Pearl. Regardless of what the balls are billed to do, the only thing that matters is what a particular type can do for you. The reaction you get out of a ball greatly depends on your ball speed, rotation, revolutions, and the lane conditions. You need to be armed with information about the balls, but just as important if not more important you need to know how you are throwing the ball . Develop a good understanding of your own game, then rely on the ball reviews of the manufacturers to help you make a selection. Manufacturers are very good at comparing the different models of their equipment against each other.

[PASSIONATEBOWLER]

I normally play outside (anywhere from 5 - 12). And I'm looking for something with better carry for heavy oiled lanes. Haven't been on the site much, so I haven't heard much about what HammerHeads are saying about the Bite? I compared it to my solid, and was surpirsed to see that it has the same RG and DIFF as the solid, which makes me wonder if it would make a big enough difference in my game.

I'm still a bit confused, but it's comforting to hear that even if I went with something with an earlier roll, I can get the ball drilled to go longer. I suppose I should try to have the pro shop view my game, however, the last time I did that, I ended up buying a ball that did nothing for me (the Brunswick Rampage). :(

[blistershurt]

Anything can roll early if laid out right with the correct surface prep.

I would suggest buy an Anger for heavy oil, it has a heavy roll and will get you through oil (mine can be too much for PBA shots at times)

Although, as for the Bite, it is smoother than the other Widows because of the coverstock, it has a flip at the breakpoint, but it is very smooth still.

[VmsTopGun]

I normally play outside (anywhere from 5 - 12). And I'm looking for something with better carry for heavy oiled lanes. Haven't been on the site much, so I haven't heard much about what HammerHeads are saying about the Bite? I compared it to my solid, and was surpirsed to see that it has the same RG and DIFF as the solid, which makes me wonder if it would make a big enough difference in my game.

I'm still a bit confused, but it's comforting to hear that even if I went with something with an earlier roll, I can get the ball drilled to go longer. I suppose I should try to have the pro shop view my game, however, the last time I did that, I ended up buying a ball that did nothing for me (the Brunswick Rampage). :(

one of my bowling associates has a rampage and a BWS. The rampage has been relegated to a spare ball since purchasing the BWS

One of the top bowlers in the leagues @ our lanes bought a bite and found it too strong so he polished it for more length. Basically turning it into a BWS.

My anger is about 4X4 and has an absoultly great entry angle for my pansy ass straight up the 10 board @ 15 mph technique:) a lot of other board members have angers also and like them. My son has one drilled by buddies in CT. took it from the shop to the lanes and put up a 250 @ 14 yrs old. it has a great motion with plenty of carry for a sym core.

dont get anything else less than 4" pin to pap. the early roll makes for difficult( flat) entry angle into the pocket un less you play way out to the side.
LOts of us love the anger, ( cept idle...) dont think you can go wrong with it.

[blistershurt]

Yes, I will second the motion on the Anger being great with entry angle, especially for an early rolling ball.

With the Anger, if I crush the pocket, I am worried about leaving one pin. Not the 7, not the 10. But I am worried about leaving the solid 9 because of how much this ball continues through the deck.

Mine is drilled 5 inches pin to PAP under ring finger, with the CG at 4 inches to PAP, with a pin X Hole about an inch from the CG (very big X hole, the biggest I have ever seen). My Anger starts in the mids and rolls, and then does a flip for the break, and continues through the deck.

My first practice night with the Anger was the night I got it and I didnt shoot under 220 (I'm pretty young, and I have some knee issues and because of them I screw up my release and stop short sometimes because of the pain), the Anger on a THS will give you 5-7 boards margin of error (dont miss left though, god dont miss left, you'll end up with a 7 pin pick)

[PASSIONATEBOWLER]

Yes, I will second the motion on the Anger being great with entry angle, especially for an early rolling ball.

With the Anger, if I crush the pocket, I am worried about leaving one pin. Not the 7, not the 10. But I am worried about leaving the solid 9 because of how much this ball continues through the deck.

Mine is drilled 5 inches pin to PAP under ring finger, with the CG at 4 inches to PAP, with a pin X Hole about an inch from the CG (very big X hole, the biggest I have ever seen). My Anger starts in the mids and rolls, and then does a flip for the break, and continues through the deck.

My first practice night with the Anger was the night I got it and I didnt shoot under 220 (I'm pretty young, and I have some knee issues and because of them I screw up my release and stop short sometimes because of the pain), the Anger on a THS will give you 5-7 boards margin of error (dont miss left though, god dont miss left, you'll end up with a 7 pin pick)

OK, thanks guys, I will definitely take a look at the Anger.

[Paul1979]

The Anger is a great ball.

I shot my first and second 300 within 5 weeks of each other with this ball. It seems to have straightened out a little bit now, time for a soak I think!

[Rowdy]

What affect does a ball that rolls sooner (i.e., the Columbia Resurgence), vs a ball that goes longer (i.e., the Black Widow Bite), have on heavy oiled lanes? I bowl 14 - 15 mph, with medium revs.

I currently use my Black Widow solid on heavy oil lanes, but am looking for something that will grab the lanes more.

Just try taking the coverstock on your BWS down to 1000-2000Abralon dull. That'll grab the lane.

[Viking_Bowler@hotmail.com]

ok what???
rampage as a spare? are u joking me? i'll out hook anything u can throw with any ball on any lane condition with my rampage at 400 abralon come on people

[Viking_Bowler@hotmail.com]

4000 sorry

[Dave34]

Obviously his is not matched up to him/drilled incorrectly/has a bad surface prep so he relegated it to a spare ball. Cool that yours is working and that you can outhook everybody.

[VmsTopGun]

ok what???
rampage as a spare? are u joking me? i'll out hook anything u can throw with any ball on any lane condition with my rampage at 400 abralon come on people


You can put any ball with any drilling this guys hand and the ball wont move more than 5 boards. his velocity to rev rate ratio is so dominate that the ball dosn't move that much. He's on his forth ball now. rampage, BWS, copperhead and resurgance. if you didnt look at the cover stock, you couldnt tell the difference in any of the balls as they go down the lane.

Congratulations on you being able to out hook me with any ball on any lane condition. I hope it increases your self esteem.

[Rowdy]

Coverstock adjustment and Drilling Layout are more important than the ball type. Both balls can do the opposite of what you just said about them.

If this is true then how come my strike balls outhook all the house balls in the alley? C'mon,the core has to matter,or else your statement about a drilling layout is bilgewater. Why does the drill matter? Because thats how you're going to rotate the core of the ball,thats why.

Given the choice,for me and my game,I'll always take length over early roll. Length stores energy,early roll doesn't.

[Thepainscoming]

and length can create a ton of over/under and be very unpredictable at the break.

[Rowdy]

and length can create a ton of over/under and be very unpredictable at the break.

Well,whoop oop dee doo. Then don't throw for length if you can't handle it. My gear doesn't suffer from over/under and is very predictable at the break. Excuse me for having my sh!t together and all in one bag.

[idlehourlegend]

Most of my stuff is length, actually a lot of my stuff is drilled stacked, so its strong but its smooth, I like that, I need the length because of the revs and I like the strength for the recovery room that I have with it in case I get a little adventerous and want to play a big line.

[Rowdy]

The "Rev Challenged" among us will be along shortly to tell you how wrong you are.:p

[idlehourlegend]

The "Rev Challenged" among us will be along shortly to tell you how wrong you are.:p

lol yea I've heard it all my life from the good ole suitcaser's saying you must just love to look good and have the ball go way down and make a hard snap, everytime was like ummm thats not a hard snap that would be a smooth arc for me, and then would get this dumbfounded look. Quite funny really. Early rolling balls for me = 7 counts and shooting at 2-4-7's all night or if I get faster we get some nice washouts, just dont like 'em.

[bluerrpilot]

Somewhere in here is a comment about guys shooting 220 on a house shot then bowling a regional and not breaking 180 :p

[ashley1_scott]

The "Rev Challenged" among us will be along shortly to tell you how wrong you are.:p

My ears were turning red, so i had to check what was being said.
I Name is Ashley Scott, and i am Rev Challenged.
I have a rev count of about 350ish (need to get to Dunstable to check).
My stuff is drilled to roll early, if i need to get that little bit more length.
I normally start the ball a little higher, or change to my 90 degrees release
which as you all know will make the ball skid more before turning.
Also i am not a fast bowler ( 16-17mph) so i don't have to worry about it sliding to far.

[Dave34]

I prefer drilling my stuff to roll early because I have a lot of axis tilt so my stuff ends up going long and flipping anyway.

[Thepainscoming]

Well,whoop oop dee doo. Then don't throw for length if you can't handle it. My gear doesn't suffer from over/under and is very predictable at the break. Excuse me for having my sh!t together and all in one bag. wow. and u can have an early rolling ball and still hit with great power.

[Rowdy]

My ears were turning red, so i had to check what was being said.
I Name is Ashley Scott, and i am Rev Challenged.
I have a rev count of about 350ish (need to get to Dunstable to check).
My stuff is drilled to roll early, if i need to get that little bit more length.
I normally start the ball a little higher, or change to my 90 degrees release
which as you all know will make the ball skid more before turning.
Also i am not a fast bowler ( 16-17mph) so i don't have to worry about it sliding to far.

350 isn't "Rev Challenged".

Around here 16-17 mph would slide through the break. Except for one particular house with notoriously dry lanes. "Cough,cough. Where Neo bowls. Cough,cough":rolleyes:

[Rowdy]

wow. and u can have an early rolling ball and still hit with great power.

Somehow I just can't wrap my arms around this one. Okay,yes the ball will hit with power. But score well? Nah. Too small a margin for error with an early roller.

[ashley1_scott]

350 isn't "Rev Challenged".

Rowdy, Compaired to the rest of my team, and in fact most of my main league, 350 is low.
To avoid having to open another can of worms, can you send me the link to the thread about how to check my revs.
I will pop it on youtube if i get a chance, that people can give me a better idea on where i am going wrong.

[bluerrpilot]

Somehow I just can't wrap my arms around this one. Okay,yes the ball will hit with power. But score well? Nah. Too small a margin for error with an early roller.

Bowl in a few different houses and a wider variety of shots, and you will see the need for earlier roll.

Also keep in mind that early roll does not mean early hook

[idlehourlegend]

Bowl in a few different houses and a wider variety of shots, and you will see the need for earlier roll.

Also keep in mind that early roll does not mean early hook

Personally for me, as long as its a house shot of any type (carry down or not), my later down lane stuff will still work just fine, the only time I use early rolling or lower grit balls is on PBA/sport patterns.

[Rowdy]

Bowl in a few different houses and a wider variety of shots, and you will see the need for earlier roll.

Also keep in mind that early roll does not mean early hook

I do.

I don't.

I know.

Sorry Dude,but early rollers just don't cut it. I don't want the ball to transition to a forward roll until just before the rack.

[Rowdy]

Personally for me, as long as its a house shot of any type (carry down or not), my later down lane stuff will still work just fine, the only time I use early rolling or lower grit balls is on PBA/sport patterns.

I've got lower grit balls for those sport/PBA patterns,but they still go long before making the transition to a forward roll.

I don't really know how to explain it other than to say I hate the idea of giving up energy in the ball too soon. When you have an early roller the ball is bleeding off energy as soon as it makes the transition from a side to forward roll. Why give up something you don't have to? I'd rather throw a shot that keeps the energy up for whats important,knocking pins down.

[idlehourlegend]

I've got lower grit balls for those sport/PBA patterns,but they still go long before making the transition to a forward roll.

I don't really know how to explain it other than to say I hate the idea of giving up energy in the ball too soon. When you have an early roller the ball is bleeding off energy as soon as it makes the transition from a side to forward roll. Why give up something you don't have to? I'd rather throw a shot that keeps the energy up for whats important,knocking pins down.

2 of my 3 lower grit ones for those shots are also drilled for length so I know where your coming from.

[bluerrpilot]

I've got lower grit balls for those sport/PBA patterns,but they still go long before making the transition to a forward roll.

I don't really know how to explain it other than to say I hate the idea of giving up energy in the ball too soon. When you have an early roller the ball is bleeding off energy as soon as it makes the transition from a side to forward roll. Why give up something you don't have to? I'd rather throw a shot that keeps the energy up for whats important,knocking pins down.

I agree. And by all means use whatever works. But sometimes you need to open your mind. Whatever you need to do or use to control the back of the lane.

One of these days you will bowl a Regional and cant figure out why your hitting the pocket and not carrying. Then your mind will open up to the idea.

[slap]

I've got lower grit balls for those sport/PBA patterns,but they still go long before making the transition to a forward roll.

I don't really know how to explain it other than to say I hate the idea of giving up energy in the ball too soon. When you have an early roller the ball is bleeding off energy as soon as it makes the transition from a side to forward roll. Why give up something you don't have to? I'd rather throw a shot that keeps the energy up for whats important,knocking pins down.

It is possible for a ball to have too much energy downlane. This can cause a variety of problems, especially with regards to pin carry. In order for a ball to reach its maximum rev rate, it has to loose energy which in turn allows the ball to loose it's axis rotation and roll. If the ball is traveling with excessive energy (speed), the skid-hook-roll transition will not occur properly. In this case will not drive through the pocket, it will hit weak due to deflection. The ball is effectively sliding through the pocket. Think 5-7, 8-10 or 5-10, 7-9 splits. Excessive energy (rotation) can also be a cause of the dreaded pocket 8 or pocket 9. The ball is still hooking through the pocket and hits the 5 pin too flush. Excessive speed at the breakpoint can also cause of ringing corner pins.

For maximum carry the ball needs to be rolling into the pocket.

[idlehourlegend]

It is possible for a ball to have too much energy downlane. This can cause a variety of problems, especially with regards to pin carry. In order for a ball to reach its maximum rev rate, it has to loose energy which in turn allows the ball to loose it's axis rotation and roll. If the ball is traveling with excessive energy (speed), the skid-hook-roll transition will not occur properly. In this case will not drive through the pocket, it will hit weak due to deflection. The ball is effectively sliding through the pocket. Think 5-7 8-10 or 5-10 7-9 splits. Excessive energy (rotation) can also be a cause of the dreaded pocket 8 or pocket 9. The ball is still hooking through the pocket and hits the 5 pin too flush. Excessive speed at the breakpoint can also cause of ringing corner pins.

For maximum carry the ball needs to be rolling into the pocket.

Just a question, how can you leave a 5-7-8-10 or 5-10-7-9? Never seen one left, has to be a really bad bowler with a ton of deflection or low ball speed to leave something like that, kind of impossible or atleast I thought so.

[VmsTopGun]

add a few commas and it will become clear

[idlehourlegend]

add a few commas and it will become clear

OOO ok, that would make more sense, whenever I see one of those splits left there's 5 words that come to my mind....Put some fingers in it!

[slap]

add a few commas and it will become clear

commas added...lol

[J_W73]

If this is true then how come my strike balls outhook all the house balls in the alley? C'mon,the core has to matter,or else your statement about a drilling layout is bilgewater. Why does the drill matter? Because thats how you're going to rotate the core of the ball,thats why.

Given the choice,for me and my game,I'll always take length over early roll. Length stores energy,early roll doesn't.


I have to say that I am starting to agree with Rowdy about this point. Do I want the ball to hook in the first 20 ft and go straight or go straight and hook in the last 20 feet.. I'll take last twenty feet. Trying to go to more early rolling equipment is killing my game. I got it for pba patterns and it didn't help there either.

[J_W73]

My ears were turning red, so i had to check what was being said.
I Name is Ashley Scott, and i am Rev Challenged.
I have a rev count of about 350ish (need to get to Dunstable to check).
My stuff is drilled to roll early, if i need to get that little bit more length.
I normally start the ball a little higher, or change to my 90 degrees release
which as you all know will make the ball skid more before turning.
Also i am not a fast bowler ( 16-17mph) so i don't have to worry about it sliding to far.


I understand that others may have more revs than you but 350 isnt' rev challenged at all. 350 and more is what Bowler's Journal calls a power player. I was wondering what your PAP is and if you are a high tracker?

[ashley1_scott]

I understand that others may have more revs than you but 350 isnt' rev challenged at all. 350 and more is what Bowler's Journal calls a power player. I was wondering what your PAP is and if you are a high tracker?

I was down the alley yesterday so took some photo's of my stuff ( god was i getting some funny looks)

http://photobucket.com/ashley1_scott

The photo marked sanyo006edited i have draw on my track,
the white bit of tape is approximately wear my PAP is

[J_W73]

I was down the alley yesterday so took some photo's of my stuff ( god was i getting some funny looks)

http://photobucket.com/ashley1_scott

The photo marked sanyo006edited i have draw on my track,
the white bit of tape is approximately wear my PAP is

your track doesn't look too high but I wonder what it is on your plastic ball. I track maybe a half an inch left of the thumb on my plastic. My assymetrical hooking stuff tracks alot lower on the first ring of oil that I can see. not sure why or if the first ring is just getting absorbed before I have a chance to see it..

Also, what type of look are you trying to get out of that widow. From what I have learned , putting the MB in that posistion will kill the backend and reaction of the ball.

[Lonewolf300800]

i was wondering who drilled your widow. if you are a righthanded bowler as it seems to be from where you marked your track, i'd definately agree that it is drilled very weak. if you are a righthanded bowler the MB marking should be on the other side of your thumbhole, it will give you the movement you want on the backend. from the way it's drilled looks like whomever drilled it used the NoMercy drilling on it which puts the heart in your track, which is where your MB marking is. how does the ball react for you as it's drilled now?

[ashley1_scott]

If you are a righthanded bowler as it seems to be from where you marked your track, i'd definately agree that it is drilled very weak. if you are a righthanded bowler the MB marking should be on the other side of your thumbhole, whomever drilled it used the NoMercy drilling on it which puts the heart in your track, which is where your MB marking is. how does the ball react for you as it's drilled now?



The drilling that is on this ball is Drilling #4. Label Layout (smooth arc)

http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=45620036

Hopefully this link will work.
Pattern is our 38' league pattern (not house pattern)

[JaraTo]

And boy do I love that layout on my pearl.

[Rowdy]

The drilling that is on this ball is Drilling #4. Label Layout (smooth arc)

http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=45620036

Hopefully this link will work.
Pattern is our 38' league pattern (not house pattern)

It's drilled right,but why are you wandering all over the approach like that?

[Flessan]

My ears were turning red, so i had to check what was being said.
I Name is Ashley Scott, and i am Rev Challenged.
I have a rev count of about 350ish (need to get to Dunstable to check).
My stuff is drilled to roll early, if i need to get that little bit more length.
I normally start the ball a little higher, or change to my 90 degrees release
which as you all know will make the ball skid more before turning.
Also i am not a fast bowler ( 16-17mph) so i don't have to worry about it sliding to far.

Ummm...
I believe I'm a bit more rev challenged...
I'm closer to 200 revs
high track roller
speed-wise.. 12-14 mph

Then again... I probably had 350+ revs on the wood lanes I bowled on last month...

[idlehourlegend]

Ummm...
I believe I'm a bit more rev challenged...
I'm closer to 200 revs
high track roller
speed-wise.. 12-14 mph

Then again... I probably had 350+ revs on the wood lanes I bowled on last month...

You dont gain 150 revs because your bowling on wood lanes, those lanes were drier and had more friction, so when you threw your normal ball it hooked a lot more than normal, thats because of the lanes and more HOOK not more revs or rotation.

[Flessan]

Hehe.. It indeed was taking off.. my ball came back sopping wet though..

I suppose the friction just made it catch fast as opposed to skidding down the lane... making it appear to rotate quicker.