team attitude

[Curacao_Dejavu]

another thing that happened yesterday.

we play 4 vs 4, 4 games.
one team member of the opponent's team did not show up, thus it was 4 vs 3.
at the beginning of the the 3th game the captain of the opponents team started to mouth something about needing to step up their game to catch us etc (they weren't doing that bad considering they had a blind on the board) and mothers and fathers etc. and towards the end it was something of if they don't win he will be leaving. At the 10th frame it was clear that they would loose the game, the guy threw his 10th frame, picked up his stuff and voila, gone.
No goodby, no handshake, didnt speak with his teammembers , he simply left.
Seeing that the 2 remaining members took their stuff and left also.
So there we were, 4 game open still left to play but no opponents.
And everyone at the center looking at our lanes like " what the hell just happened". So a little conference and it turned out we had to play vs 4 blinds.
I just considered it a extra practise session , more so since I did nt practise last week.
And since at the beginning of the night I was having problems that my thumb was getting stuck in the ball and that I lost my "patented" swing, I needed to regain my swing and confidence back, and threw my high score for the night a 192.

I realize that 3 vs 4, or even 2 vs 4 is not really a fair match, but I believe you have to continue to play for the team, and You never you what might happen, maybe you have a super game and still salvage something.
Also there is still your personal goals that you may want to accomplish.

5 lanes further from us, almost the same happened.
a game started 4 vs 3 also.
and after the during the second game , the wife of one of the players called in (she became ill , needed some help)
That I can understand and accept.
The guy needed to go.
The game became 4 vs 2. But the remaining 2 players played their games full till the end.
That's how you are suppose to play.

(ranting a little)

Leopold

[Sin City Hammer]

I've had to deal with that feeling for 2 seasons now, it's bad enough when your one person down even for a week, but when your two people down and your one of the people staying, it's not only frustrating because you want the same chance to win as the other team but you consistantly giving away freebie points to the other team each week.

Each week, knowing that the team of myself and bob have to use a vacant and 2 absent bowler scores each week, we still try to do are best and have fun, and we usually get one win each week because of it. But, I have always been a good sport and shake the hands of the people against us afterwards.

It's suppose to be about sportsmanship overall, and not leaving your team like that, and not leaving like a bad sport because either he or his teammates didn't pick up their game. Sportsmanship is one of the values that bowling promotes even more so than the major sports do, and should aways be shown reguardless of victory or defeat.

If your team beat mine dispite the odds, I would still shake your hand at the end of it.

[BubbaRay]

Very well put Sin City. I totally agree with you and like you, I always shake the opponents hand at the end of the night and tell them nice bowling.

[Rowdy]

Bad,bad call. When a team leaves in the middle of the match,they forfeit any remaining games. You don't bowl against a blind. If they quit in the middle of a game they get zeros the rest of the way until the end of the game.

All you're doing at that point is rolling for team pinfall and your league average.

Make sure your league secretary gets the standings right.

[idlehourlegend]

Bad,bad call. When a team leaves in the middle of the match,they forfeit any remaining games. You don't bowl against a blind. If they quit in the middle of a game they get zeros the rest of the way until the end of the game.

All you're doing at that point is rolling for team pinfall and your league average.

Make sure your league secretary gets the standings right.

Yea I agree with Rowdy here and thats what the rule book says, less than 3 guys(5 man league) and they forfeit all points, but if they leave for no reason before the end of league they lost automatic, no bowling blanks or anything.

[Rowdy]

This is exactly why there is a Rule book always in my bag. And why I'll hold up the show to make damn sure we do everything and interpet everything correctly.

[Curacao_Dejavu]

Yea I agree with Rowdy here and thats what the rule book says, less than 3 guys(5 man league) and they forfeit all points, but if they leave for no reason before the end of league they lost automatic, no bowling blanks or anything.

The curacao bowling organisation has rules.
Those we have to apply by when we are playing for master league etc


The thing is that the house is the one that is organizing the monday through thursday leagues and not the bowling organisation, and so far I have not hear of read something about rules for during these leagues.


this one rule "If they quit in the middle of a game they get zeros the rest of the way until the end of the game" they have applied once (agains us)

I do not understand this remark:
"Make sure your league secretary gets the standings right"
they lost the 4th game (4 x blind) anyway, thus it still makes a difference ??

Leopold

[Rowdy]

Normally you would have to be within 40 pins of your team average to get the points when you roll against a blind team. If your team averages 500 pins a game any score OVER 460 would get you the win in that game.

However,that does NOT apply in this case. They quit,you win. Regardless of any blind scores. So make sure that the league secretary counts those games as wins and not losses towards your league standings.

For the life of me I can't even begin to fathom how they thought you should have been rolling against a blind. I mentioned this little tale at my league tonight and every single guy who had served as a league officer all came up with the same answer off the top of their pointy little heads.

They quit,you win.

[Curacao_Dejavu]

in other sports that I have played if a team does not show up or is not complete the team loses per default. so I do not get it either.

now a question about blind score.
at the league a blind score is 130 points . from your answer I understand it's something else, you are mentioning team average !! ??


looking up blind score i found this:
"Blind score. When a league bowler is "blind" and can't find his/her way to the league that evening, the bowler's average is simply used (as if he/she just bowled that score) when figuring the team's total for each game."

can you explain this further.

Leopold

[Rowdy]

in other sports that I have played if a team does not show up or is not complete the team loses per default. so I do not get it either.

now a question about blind score.
at the league a blind score is 130 points . from your answer I understand it's something else, you are mentioning team average !! ??


looking up blind score i found this:
"Blind score. When a league bowler is "blind" and can't find his/her way to the league that evening, the bowler's average is simply used (as if he/she just bowled that score) when figuring the team's total for each game."

can you explain this further.

Leopold

When your team rolls against a blind score, YOUR team not only has to beat the blind but must also roll within 10 pins per person on the team. So if it's a four man team,you guys have to score no LESS than 40 pins under your TEAM average.

Let's say your team averages 600 pins per game. Four man team.

The blind is 130. So 130 X 4 = 520.

Now,your team has to roll at least a 560 to win. Even though a 559 to 520 game would look like a winner,you didn't make the minumum pinfall and would therefore lose the game.

Now let's say the blind is still 130, but you guys really suck and can't beat a 520. Then you lose. Badly.

You also have a case to make with that,"Quit and get zero's" arguement. Since the "Rule" was pulled out and used AGAINST you, it should also be used FOR you. Unless someone can show you IN WRITING where the rule has been changed or dropped.

Don't you guys have a rulebook down there? By that I mean a rulebook that everyone gets a copy of???

[Curacao_Dejavu]

"Let's say your team averages 600 pins per game. Four man team.

The blind is 130. So 130 X 4 = 520.

Now,your team has to roll at least a 560 to win. Even though a 559 to 520 game would look like a winner,you didn't make the minimum pin fall and would therefore lose the game."

hmm, that not nice.
I have not paid attention to the score.
2 of us scored well , 2 scored bad. i think we made it though.
will have to wait and see what the result would be next week.

what's the reasoning that you have to throw 40 pins higher ?

curacao bowling association has a online version of the rules.
(when they pulled that "quit and zero's argument) I browsed the online version of curacao bowling association and when I started to ask questions it turned out that the house has their own rules and does not necessary use the one of curacao bowling association and I never saw a rulebook of the bowling house (it's my second year).
By judging at the reaction of the teams that were present I think it's the first time that this had happened.


Leopold

[Rowdy]

what's the reasoning that you have to throw 40 pins higher ?

Not higher. LOWER. On a 600 pin four man team average you would have to roll 560 or more to win.

It's in place to prevent sandbagging. If the rule wasn't in place there are some people out there,(And you know who you are),that would take advantage of the situation and roll as low a score as possible to lower thier average and INCREASE thier handicap.

The 10 pin per bowler rule insures that the team has to give it thier best shot,no matter what.

And interestingly last night at an organizational meeting some Dude wanted to have a vote on increasing the number of pins per bowler that a team could be under and still win. From 10 to 15. He phrased the question in such a manner that almost everyone thought they were voting to make it harder for the bye team to win,not easier.

Almost everyone thought that.....except me.:) Thanks to you. So when I raised my hand and looked at this guy and said,"In other words,you want to make it easier for teams to sandbag this year,right?",the vote came in as one for the change and everyone else voted to keep it at 10 pins per bowler. I do belive I cheesed the guy off. Tough cookies.

[Curacao_Dejavu]

For the life of me I can't even begin to fathom how they thought you should have been rolling against a blind.
.

I went to the bowling house today.
The reason given that we needed to throw is:
at the end of the season and there would be a tie, the team with the highest amount of pinfalls would win the "tiebreaker"

Leopold

[Rowdy]

I went to the bowling house today.
The reason given that we needed to throw is:
at the end of the season and there would be a tie, the team with the highest amount of pinfalls would win the "tiebreaker"

Leopold

Who are these idiots??? Of course you still bowl the games for the pinfall. But that's not the issue here. League standings are. Because of the way the other team quit that night,you get the wins for league standings without having to worry about being within 40 pins of your team average.

Now,one last time.

Did your team get credit for winning those games or not?

[Curacao_Dejavu]

Who are these idiots??? Of course you still bowl the games for the pinfall. But that's not the issue here. League standings are. Because of the way the other team quit that night,you get the wins for league standings without having to worry about being within 40 pins of your team average.

Now,one last time.

Did your team get credit for winning those games or not?

yes we got the points.

Leopold

[Adrenaline]

What Rowdy was trying to explain, is that if a person is "blind" they get a 10 pin cut EACH GAME.

Meaning if I have a 200 average, and I'm "blind" that night, the computer only gives me 190 score for each game.

In most leagues you take a 10 pin cut, per game missed.

In our league, you don't take a 10 pin cut until your second week missing, they let you slide on the first one. Not all leagues work the same.

So what Rowdy is getting at, is since your league "incorrectly" put them as 'blinds', Say they all average 150 each.
The computer scores every one of them at 140 pins.

140x4 = 560 pins.
If for some reason your team bowled less than 560, it would have been considered a LOSS for YOU. What Rowdy is saying, is that no matter what you guys bowled, be it a team total of 10, or 1000, you should have won the games, because the other team forfeited. Making it an automatic win in your case, which I completely agree with.

Shortest terms, you shouldn't of had to bowl against "blinds" their team should have just been an automatic loss, no questions asked. But since you won the game anyway, it doesn't really matter I guess.

[Curacao_Dejavu]

ok,

i understand the "blind" as you are explaining.

In my case the blind does not work like that.
A blind is set fix at 130 for whoever is not present, we don't look at avg's.

the other aspect is, what we all are agreeing on (here at the forum) is that the other team left, thus forfeiting , we should not even have played.

Their argument is that in case of a tie (in points) , they will look at the total pin falls to determine who will be higher in the rankings.

Leopold

[v.redmon]

not jumping off subject too much here but reading all the threads and I am still dumb founded by the guy packing up and leaving. Your one man down and you dont have the pride to suck it up, childish mabe he should go to a kiddies league.

Grow up and grow a pair that how I feel.

[Curacao_Dejavu]

last monday, the same thing with the same team, I was playing the lanes next to them.

1 st game , 1 man short.

in the middle of the 1st game;
frantic calls to the missing person; no answer at the other end.
then he was telling his team mates "if you dont get a hold of person x at the end of the 1st game, I am out of here.

person x appeared just in time at the second game.

I did not know how they fared, since my team lost my our 1st game by 2 pins (very unnessesary , 2 people missing there spares in the 10th frame 1 of those 2 was me )
Was time to focus again on our own team.

I did hear that next year the team will break up.

Leopold

[Rowdy]

ok,

i understand the "blind" as you are explaining.

In my case the blind does not work like that.
A blind is set fix at 130 for whoever is not present, we don't look at avg's.

the other aspect is, what we all are agreeing on (here at the forum) is that the other team left, thus forfeiting , we should not even have played.


Your 130 is NOT a blind, it's a vacant score. Two very different things. A "blind" score is used for a bowler that isn't there that night and who did not pre-bowl.

A "vacant" is just what the name implies. If the team is short a player,then a vacant score is used.

You don't look at averages??? What the hell??? Then why have them? Just show up and roll for fun.

I would seriously consider getting away from these people. If they don't know the difference between a blind and a vacant score,what other surprises are in store for you if it looks like your team is going to win the whole thing? Everything you've described sounds sooooooooo fishy I can't help but wonder if the fix is already in and you just don't know it yet.

Wrong,you always roll your games for the TEAM pinfall at least. It's how they break ties. Besides,never know when that 300 game will show up.

[Rowdy]

last monday, the same thing with the same team, I was playing the lanes next to them.

1 st game , 1 man short.

in the middle of the 1st game;
frantic calls to the missing person; no answer at the other end.
then he was telling his team mates "if you dont get a hold of person x at the end of the 1st game, I am out of here.

Right here is where you walk over and tell him,"Why wait? Here,I'll help you pack now." And toss his sorry butt out on the street.

[v.redmon]

:eek: dont toss him out on your own you could hurt you bowling arm. Have a couple of people help you. That way you dont hurt yourself. :) But if you miss and his melon happens to hit the door on the way out once or twice, you know what they say try try agian. lol

[Adrenaline]

i understand the "blind" as you are explaining.

In my case the blind does not work like that.
A blind is set fix at 130 for whoever is not present, we don't look at avg's.

I think you are mistaken, as Rowdy explained, that is a "Vacancy"
The reason being for that, is that a 3 Man team (Assuming a 4 person league) can still compete weekly.

The reason "Blinds" don't work like that, say Person A bowls a 190 average, the machine auto blinds them at 130, it's pretty much a guaranteed loss for all 4 games that night, and in reverse, say Person B only bowls a 96 average, they skip a night, and they magically get 34 pins over average every game?
Nope.

I think you're just mixed up with the labels.
The only other explination is... Is this a scratch league?
No handicap?