Technique Question

[BigEd]

I decided to take the summer off because I finished up 4 leagues last winter. I averaged about a 215 overall and was pleased with my stats. However, this year I only have time for one league due to working at the new Lucas Oil Stadium in Indianapolis. (BTW it's amazing.) Anyhow.....the first 2 weeks of the league have been horrible. I know I'm a little out of sync but getting better. So here's the problem. I haven't been able to open the lane up. I can't throw the ball outside much and always seem to pull it. My sister's boyfriend carried a 232 average in many leagues and told me to open up my shoulders. I have always been taught to stay square at the line. However, he says that staying constant with opening your shoulders helps you develop more hand in the ball and lets you get the ball out. I wanted to get everyone's advice on this. I am willing to practice it and adapt it in my normal game but I wanted input. I basically open my shoulders on the approach and then go from there. It seems to be working fine for me as I went from a 164 to a 241. The only thing that changed was getting the ball out to the 3 board and drilling the pocket. Any input? You guys are the greatest! THANKS!

[BubbaRay]

A Well BigEd, I have always taught to open the lane up by droping your right foot( For Right handed bowlers ) back to the middle of your left foot in your stance. By doing this your right shoulder automatically points to the right alittle. This opens the lane up. If you keep your shoulders square at the line , you will pull 90% of your shots because your armswing will follow a straight path inline with your shoulders. With your shoulder opened pointed to the right towards your target, your armswing will now also follow the path inline with your shoulders to the right.

I play like you do. I open the lane up all the time. Also having fast feet in your approach will also cause a pull or a shot farther right than intended because you will fall off ballance to the right.

[idlehourlegend]

AWell BigEd, I have always taught to open the lane up by droping your right foot( For A Right handed bowlers ) back to the middele of your left foot in your stance. By doing this it your right shoulder automatically points to the right alittle. This opens the lane up. If you keep you shoulders square at the line , you will pull90% of your shots because your armswing will follow a straight path inline with your shoulders. With your shoulder opened pointed to the right towards your target, your armswing will now aqlso follow the path inline with your shoulders to the right.

I play like you do. I open the lane up all the time. Also having fast feet in your approach will also cause a pull or a shot farther right than intended because you will fall off ballance to the right.

This totally explains the problem Biged and how to fix it, was gonna say the say thing about putting the right in the middle of the left, I do this to open up the lane also (Im around 95% of the time always open unless I have to play straight with no room to miss out), but what Bubba said is exactly what I do also.

[Rowdy]

AWell BigEd, I have always taught to open the lane up by droping your right foot( For A Right handed bowlers ) back to the middele of your left foot in your stance. By doing this it your right shoulder automatically points to the right alittle. This opens the lane up. If you keep you shoulders square at the line , you will pull90% of your shots because your armswing will follow a straight path inline with your shoulders. With your shoulder opened pointed to the right towards your target, your armswing will now aqlso follow the path inline with your shoulders to the right.

I play like you do. I open the lane up all the time. Also having fast feet in your approach will also cause a pull or a shot farther right than intended because you will fall off ballance to the right.


This is the same way I play,too. Looks like you've got your answer.:)

[bluerrpilot]

I too agree with most of the above as well. Allthough I dont change my foot position. The important factor is staying square to your target line not the foul line. Pulling your shots can also be a product of early timing

You might want to take a look at some of the Ron Clifton articles here. They could be helpfull.

http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/roncarchive.htm

[TenPinSniper]

Do the same things as well. Don't walk towards your target.

Make sure you push the ball off clean, don't let it drop off.

Opening your shoulders is all about creating a leveraged position at your release, "the line". Keeping your shoulders at 90* with your arm swing.

Just relax and have fun it will happen.

[Rowdy]

Do the same things as well. Don't walk towards your target.

Where do you walk,towards the snack bar???

You have to walk down the target line and square your shoulders to said target line at release for the ball to go where it's supposed to.

[bluerrpilot]

You have to walk down the target line and square your shoulders to said target line at release for the ball to go where it's supposed to.


No you dont.

[slap]

There are different schools of thought on this.

[OmegaRed]

There are different schools of thought on this.

Dont leave us waiting, elaborate on them.

[bluerrpilot]

What happens when you need to play somewhere around the 5th arrow or even deeper. You cannot walk down your target line with the ball return in your way. And not too many people can adjust to a 3 step approach like Robert Smith

[BubbaRay]

You could try and side step in front of the ball return. But you will only have this problem on the right lane if you are right handed . Reversed if left handed.

[TenPinSniper]

Walking towards your target is from the Urethane Days. This will not allow you to open up at the line. It may very well close you up at the line and pull shots inside. Depending on your swing if you over correct you'll miss wide from to time.

Some of this will be explaned below.

Walking away from your target helps opening up your shoulders.

There are so may small little elements that lead to a great swing.
-Do you have the Pro-Groove?
Several elements can "screw up your swing".
-Fast Feet.
-Swing behind your back. Almost always a bad ideal
-Pushing the towards your target, which can lead to the above.
-Balance arm can be very important.
-Where is your ball in relation to your head/chin at release?
-Where does your elbow finish in relation to your chin, follow through?
-Heck is your shoulder dropped?
-Does your ball go around your hip or does the hip move out of the way?

Even when opening your feet up, pointing them towards the right gutter for a right handed player, your should not walk towards your target.

Here is some light reading that actually fits this subject to the letter.
http://bowlingknowledge.info/images/stories/swing_slot_btm_july_08.pdf

By the way if you don't have this website bookmarked... get it done.
http://bowlingknowledge.info/
Even Slap will agree! Right.;)

[TenPinSniper]

Here is some video as well...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0BBOFDCjc0
First step notice where Chris foot goes in relation to the left slide foot.
In front of it, this is to let the ball clear the hip.

Seriously pause it alot....
Look at step three paused.
Look at the balance arm, whats up you ask.
LEVERAGE, oh yeah. This is created before he has it pointing forward and it will swing to the side and one 4th and final step.
Unpause and watch what happens.

Here is the five step.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_Ksq0kgKNo&feature=related
See the note from step one above look at what happens here on step 2, the same thing.

[Rowdy]

Walking towards your target is from the Urethane Days. This will not allow you to open up at the line. It may very well close you up at the line and pull shots inside. Depending on your swing if you over correct you'll miss wide from to time.

Some of this will be explaned below.

Walking away from your target helps opening up your shoulders.

There are so may small little elements that lead to a great swing.
-Do you have the Pro-Groove?
Several elements can "screw up your swing".
-Fast Feet.
-Swing behind your back. Almost always a bad ideal
-Pushing the towards your target, which can lead to the above.
-Balance arm can be very important.
-Where is your ball in relation to your head/chin at release?
-Where does your elbow finish in relation to your chin, follow through?
-Heck is your shoulder dropped?
-Does your ball go around your hip or does the hip move out of the way?

Even when opening your feet up, pointing them towards the right gutter for a right handed player, your should not walk towards your target.

Here is some light reading that actually fits this subject to the letter.
http://bowlingknowledge.info/images/stories/swing_slot_btm_july_08.pdf

By the way if you don't have this website bookmarked... get it done.
http://bowlingknowledge.info/
Even Slap will agree! Right.;)

I'm confused. You advocate "opening up the lane",but to do that you've got to angle the shoulders at address,right? Then where else would the ball go on the backswing but behind you,because you moved the ball side shoulder back.

This whole "point your feet towards the right gutter,but don't walk towards your target" thing is laughable. I don't know about you,but I tend to go in the direction in which my feet are pointed. If I followed your directions I'd wind up next to the right ditch and have a massive outside-in swing.

But I'll indulge this just a second longer. If I'm not supposed to walk towards the target,just where am I supposed to go??? 10 boards left? 20? Towards the bar??? Where???

Now follow this logic train. I want to lay the ball down on the 10 board and have it travel in a straight line over the 7 board by the time it reaches the arrows. Since I know that the middle of my slide foot will have to be 7 boards left of the ball at release and I want the ball to travel 3 boards to the right,why wouldn't it make perfectly great sense to line up with the middle of my slide foot on the 20 board??? 10+7+3=20,right???

Since my shoulders are square to the TARGET line at release,and my swing is straight down the TARGET line,and my follow through is down the TARGET line,why on Earth would I want to walk either away from or across the line my feet have to be on to put the ball where I want it to be???

Help me out with this "elbow to chin" thing during the follow through. Once you've let go of the ball,as long as you don't decelerate at release or move the ball off-line at release,it doesn't matter what your arm does or doesn't do. The ball is long gone. It ain't coming back for a do-over. Where any part of your arm is is immaterial. The only advantage those high follow throughs have is for when you're posing for pictures.

I've always held the belief that as long as you get your arm paralel to the lane you've gone far enough. The rest is just posing. I'm one of those guys who takes it that far and then lets it swing back and forth a few times to make sure it really was a free swing. I've found that when I don't do that chances are it wasn't as free a swing as I would have liked.

Is my shoulder dropped? Yup and yours is too. Everyones is to some degree. The only two ways to keep your shoulders level is to either have a knee bend so deep that your trailing knee is on the floor or you're really heaving the ball out there on the lane. As in it's dropping out of the sky from so high an altitude that the first thing the ball does is bounce back off the lane.

The hip ROTATES out of the way of the ball on the downswing,not slides. In my case as a right hander, the right foot is back as the ball comes down and through on the backswing. Therefore the hip has rotated out of the path that the ball needs to be on to keep the swing square to the target line.

"Pushing towards the target"??? Well,where else would you like the ball to go??? It's called a TARGET for a reason,you know. A target is something you AIM at. Once again,if you don't start square how can you possibly expect to finish square??? A swing that starts off line will require an unnatural motion somewhere in the swing to return it on-line.

And last but not least,it's not where the ball is in relation to your head at release. It's where your head is in relation to the knee on your sliding leg that is the issue. If it's out in front of the knee the ball will actually hook less.

[EIGHTBALL033]

Here is some video as well...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0BBOFDCjc0
First step notice where Chris foot goes in relation to the left slide foot.
In front of it, this is to let the ball clear the hip.

Seriously pause it alot....
Look at step three paused.
Look at the balance arm, whats up you ask.
LEVERAGE, oh yeah. This is created before he has it pointing forward and it will swing to the side and one 4th and final step.
Unpause and watch what happens.

Here is the five step.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_Ksq0kgKNo&feature=related
See the note from step one above look at what happens here on step 2, the same thing.
I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO IMPLIMENT THOSE SAME THINGS IN MY GAME AFTER READING THAT IN MY BTM BOOK:cool:

[Rowdy]

First step notice where Chris foot goes in relation to the left slide foot.
In front of it, this is to let the ball clear the hip.

I'm seeing the right hip rotate out of the way of the downswing. What else would it do???

Look,it has to rotate because you're walking and taking long steps. Thats the way hips work. The only way your hips could slide is if your feet were stuck to the floor. As in a bad golf swing.

Go back and watch those again. Notice how every step is on the same board???

[TenPinSniper]

I'm seeing the right hip rotate out of the way of the downswing. What else would it do???

Look,it has to rotate because you're walking and taking long steps. Thats the way hips work. The only way your hips could slide is if your feet were stuck to the floor. As in a bad golf swing.

Go back and watch those again. Notice how every step is on the same board???

Let see, can you read the post you quoted? I never once talked about the ball clearing the hip on the swing. The hips are rotating do to the position of his balance arm. That's where the "Leverage" comes in to play.

Even if Chris walks straight up the boards, which I'm not agreeing with, because in the first step of his 4 step and second step of his 5 step approach, he crosses his right foot over in front of the left foot (slide foot). Walking straight to the line is much better than walking towards your target.

[TenPinSniper]

I'm confused. You advocate "opening up the lane",but to do that you've got to angle the shoulders at address,right? Then where else would the ball go on the backswing but behind you,because you moved the ball side shoulder back.

That does not mean you have to swing the ball behind your back.


This whole "point your feet towards the right gutter,but don't walk towards your target" thing is laughable. I don't know about you,but I tend to go in the direction in which my feet are pointed. If I followed your directions I'd wind up next to the right ditch and have a massive outside-in swing.

Here is a little pointer, since you could not figure it out yourself. You have to step left a couple of boards with your right foot. (2 or 3 boards.) This keep the swing in a straighter line instead of around the body.

But hey rip this one apart, I got it from Team USA Coach.


But I'll indulge this just a second longer. If I'm not supposed to walk towards the target,just where am I supposed to go??? 10 boards left? 20? Towards the bar??? Where???


How about a couple of boards. Try 10 or 20 boards and let us know.


Now follow this logic train. I want to lay the ball down on the 10 board and have it travel in a straight line over the 7 board by the time it reaches the arrows. Since I know that the middle of my slide foot will have to be 7 boards left of the ball at release and I want the ball to travel 3 boards to the right,why wouldn't it make perfectly great sense to line up with the middle of my slide foot on the 20 board??? 10+7+3=20,right???


Walk straight, sure why not. So I'm taking that "7" would be your personally number? So you are saying that between your ball and slide foot there are 7 boards difference at release? That could be right or close enough, but you may need to be a board or two left to get the to projection right.

But sure it's a good place to start.


Since my shoulders are square to the TARGET line at release,and my swing is straight down the TARGET line,and my follow through is down the TARGET line,why on Earth would I want to walk either away from or across the line my feet have to be on to put the ball where I want it to be???

Help me out with this "elbow to chin" thing during the follow through. Once you've let go of the ball,as long as you don't decelerate at release or move the ball off-line at release,it doesn't matter what your arm does or doesn't do. The ball is long gone. It ain't coming back for a do-over. Where any part of your arm is is immaterial. The only advantage those high follow throughs have is for when you're posing for pictures.


Did you read the article?

Walking away from your target opens you up to the target and line. It's just a fact. sure there are things that can screw this up.

Then why do you have a follow through at all? It all about alignment and finish position, like your after swing, no one said hit your chin. Why do you swing the arm back and forth afterward, it's not necessary?

It just helps create LEVERAGE. (Hey don't you own a LevRG.)


I've always held the belief that as long as you get your arm paralel to the lane you've gone far enough. The rest is just posing. I'm one of those guys who takes it that far and then lets it swing back and forth a few times to make sure it really was a free swing. I've found that when I don't do that chances are it wasn't as free a swing as I would have liked.


Posing is a good way to look at it.


Is my shoulder dropped? Yup and yours is too. Everyones is to some degree. The only two ways to keep your shoulders level is to either have a knee bend so deep that your trailing knee is on the floor or you're really heaving the ball out there on the lane. As in it's dropping out of the sky from so high an altitude that the first thing the ball does is bounce back off the lane.




The hip ROTATES out of the way of the ball on the downswing,not slides. In my case as a right hander, the right foot is back as the ball comes down and through on the backswing. Therefore the hip has rotated out of the path that the ball needs to be on to keep the swing square to the target line.


Slide where did I say that?

No, the foot gets out of the ball paths.

You actually have this right; square to the target line.


"Pushing towards the target"??? Well,where else would you like the ball to go??? It's called a TARGET for a reason,you know. A target is something you AIM at. Once again,if you don't start square how can you possibly expect to finish square??? A swing that starts off line will require an unnatural motion somewhere in the swing to return it on-line.

To repeat myself, here... walking towards your target will close the shoulder and can cause you to pull shots. Sure there are probably some exceptions. If you can consistenty score then by all means... forget all of this, but once you start having problems with your physical game.

This stuff a good coach would correct.


And last but not least,it's not where the ball is in relation to your head at release. It's where your head is in relation to the knee on your sliding leg that is the issue. If it's out in front of the knee the ball will actually hook less.

Another thing you pulled out of thin air.

The ball is under the head. Your leaned forward, but that far and I think you'd end up face planting the lane. Just my guess.

No one has advocated the head in front of the knee.

[Rowdy]

So you're saying point the feet to the right,but walk to the left for a right hander???:confused:

[TenPinSniper]

Not drastically to the left, but yeah and slight drift would not hurt a thing.

Personally, I'd keep it less than 5 boards. But I'm sure some people have more drift than that.

[Rowdy]

Walk left,throw right. You must have one hell of an inside-out swing.

[TenPinSniper]

Actually my swing goes in front of my body, then swing wide and as it comes down I pull it in close the leg/ankle. This keeps me from falling off at the pushaway with the ball and from swing behind my back. It nothing crazy, but if you really look, you'd notice what I'm doing.

[Flessan]

Personally, I tend to change up my foot angle all the time (note, singular foot).

I keep my left foot straight up, and shift my right foot angle keeping the arch of the right foot just beside the heel of my left foot. This opens up the hips, allowing you to comfortably adjust the angle of your shoulders to match. I pulled this technique from many years of marching bands, and it works well for myself.

For most right-handers that I've watched: The right foot is the foot that is pushed off of, however, the angle of the left foot is what is actually setting the direction. Once the ball is started, it tends to swing about half the angle the right foot was set at. So, if you set your foot angle at 45 degrees, it naturally opens your hips and shoulders roughly 27.5 degrees and therefore alters your arm angle.

This may only work for myself due to many years of being accustomed to keeping my upper body in a separate angle from the motion of my feet. Pulling your upper body from your hips is the key.

[slap]

There was an article in BTM about walking towards your target. I'll try to dig it up...

[slap]

Even Slap will agree! Right.;)

Yep, I'm a huge fan of Coach Slowinski. I learn a lot from his writings and I use his drills with my students and in my own practice. Very good stuff

[slap]

For those with BTM, a version of this article was published in the 2/07 issue. I can't link to that article but Coach Minshew as this one on her site.

Slap's quick synopsis: Instead of "walking towards your target" she teaches "walk parallel to your ball path (unless you're a cranker.)"

Read and discuss...

http://www.bowlingknowledge.com/tips/minshew/minshew_drifter.html

[Rowdy]

For those with BTM, a version of this article was published in the 2/07 issue. I can't link to that article but Coach Minshew as this one on her site.

Slap's quick synopsis: Instead of "walking towards your target" she teaches "walk parallel to your ball path (unless you're a cranker.)"

Read and discuss...

http://www.bowlingknowledge.com/tips/minshew/minshew_drifter.html

"Walk parallel to your ball path".....Hmm....where have I seen this before?....oh,yeah.....ME,everytime I throw the ball......

[slap]

"Walk parallel to your ball path".....Hmm....where have I seen this before?....oh,yeah.....ME,everytime I throw the ball......

and that isn't exactly the same as walking towards your target.